[matroska-general] Some more flaming about MPC/matroska/MCF on #vorbis

[Christian HJ Wiesner]

http://wiesneronline.net/ircmirror/ViewLog.jsp?file=%23vorbis.XiphIRC.20030615.log&live=false&buffNum=0

Lets be honest, Emmett is not an official member of Xiph anymore, but 
this, and the way the other Vorbis zealots eat everything spilled out of 
him crazy mouth, simply sucks ....

Christian

Session Start: Sun Jun 15 00:00:00 2003
Session Ident: #vorbis
[00:03] * justin has joined #vorbis
[00:03] * viper has joined #vorbis
 <justin> can someone let me know if MPC is open source, royalty free, 
etc, etc... basically the legal status of MpegPlus, MusePack, MPC 
whatever you want to call it
 <jack> they are all really reallynon-free
 <Garf> You can get source for betas if SV8 encoder, decoder is fully 
open source
 <justin> aren't those three the same thing
 <Garf> Patent status is unclear
 <Garf> jack: bullshit
 <jack> anything based on mpeg is non free.
[00:04] * roconnor has left #vorbis
 <jack> MPC was closed source last i heard.
 <Garf> ...only if it infringes on actual patents
 <Garf> the betas for the latest version are not, decoder was always 
open source
 <justin> so they don't compete with Ogg Vorbis as far of definitly free 
goes
 <Garf> it's situation is unclear
 <justin> Garf: if it's debatable, its usually not worth pursuing for a 
free alternative IMHO
 <Garf> well, vorbis is debatable too
 <jack> only by goo dlawyers :)
 <Garf> nobody's found a patent...yet
 <Garf> try asking jack for a signed guarantee you wont get sued for 
using vorbis
 <jack> try asking IBM for the same :)
 <jack> intellectual property is a crap shoot.
 <justin> IP = no such thing IMHO
 <jack> but the different is that our stated purposed is freedom.
 <jack> and we try pretty hard.
 <Garf> well, then you understand that the difference between MPC and 
Vorbis is mostly warm fuzzy feelings
 <jack> to my knowledge everyone else's purpose is 'sound good'
 <justin> perhaps. but I would stream/downloads .ogg before AAC+, MPC, 
MP3 for royalty/legal reasons
 <Garf> so Vorbis doesn't sound good?
 <jack> no, but that's not the #1 goal.
 <justin> vorbis sounds terrible
 <justin> just kidding :)
 <Garf> jack: so, whats your point then?
 <Garf> :)
 <jack> my poin tis that we do everything possible to ensure freedom
 <jack> while most of the others just don't care about that issue at all
 <justin> isn't vorbis infringing some wavelet patent or something, or 
the video codec is for .ogg container
[00:09] * viper has quit IRC (Client Exit: )
 <justin> jack: that's respectable too
 <jack> we are not using wavelets in vorbis.
 <jack> the wavelets in tarket are over 30 years old i believe.
[00:09] * |DB| has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
 <jack> so they are certainly in teh clear
 <justin> jack: than what's the "possible" breach of copyright/ 
so-called IP in vorbis that you earlier spoke of
 <jack> perhaps some no name company could show up with a patent nobody 
has seen before
 <Garf> wavelets themselves yes, so are the mpc base technologies
 <jack> but we're pretty sure that won't happen.
 <Garf> it's the applications that get patented
 <justin> jack: do you guys do patent research?
 <justin> jack: perhaps you need a patent lawyer
 <jack> we have done research in the past yes.
 <jack> still much to be done.
 <justin> jack: microsoft has many faces you know :)
 <justin> jack: i wouldn't be suprised if they tried to burn vorbis
[00:13] * OldMan prays for the hastening of government-granted 
monopolist hegemony, so everybody else has an incentive to say "fuck the 
government-granted monopolists" and get on with life as free men.
 <OldMan> We spend WAY too much time and effort worrying about it.
 <OldMan> Microsoft can bite me.
 <OldMan> The USPTO can bite me.
 <OldMan> And the sooner we all get on with saying "bite me," the sooner 
we can get back to enjoying our music, when and how we see fit.
 <justin> heh. well do know that Microsoft bites hard and doesn't let go :)
[00:14] * whitestar applauds OldMan
 <OldMan> justin: they can't do shit to me without initiating violence.
 <whitestar> You have acquired much wisdom in your years, sir.
 <OldMan> justin: I don't use any of their products, and I've never 
given them money for anything.
 <justin> OldMan: haven't you seent that movie
 <OldMan> justin: so in order to control me in any way, they would have 
to physically enter my house and drag me out in handcuffs.
 <justin> OldMan: can't say that i haven't given them money, but I 
"wisened" up
 <ChrHJW_zZZzz> jack : justin has a point here. Once Vorbis gets too 
sucessful, the big players may try to kick your asses, searching for 
patent infringements
 <justin> OldMan: I bought my mac with lots of propreitary software 
thinking it would make life "easier" and "liberate me" (thank you apple 
PR) when in fact it just restricted me with an army of robot guards
 <justin> OldMan: word offers nothing that LaTeX/ascii can't solve 
except for "save as .doc"
 <ChrHJW_zZZzz> and about MPV : it would be OSs already, but there is a 
good reason not to open the source now
 <OldMan> ChrHJW_zZZzz: the point is pretty thin. If you think I'd stop 
using xiph.org codecs 'cuz Microsoft doesn't like 'em, or 'cuz the 
government says they're bad, you're a silly person.
 <ChrHJW_zZZzz> MPCV
 <ChrHJW_zZZzz> OldMan ?
 <justin> OldMan: I just hate the way that propreitary 
developers/companies ASSUME that everyone is inherintly dumb or somethign
 <ChrHJW_zZZzz> nobody tells you to stop using anything
 <justin> OldMan: I back up my first amendment with my second amendment!
 <OldMan> ChrHJW_zZZzz: furthermore, if you think that set of 
circumstances would serve to stop the development community, that's also 
silly. I personally would make sure the source code (which I have for 
vorbis and flac, though I haven't snagged it for speex yet) would wind 
up on GNUnet and freenet.
 <ChrHJW_zZZzz> you dont get my point
 <justin> OldMan: microsoft probably has a secret army in a small island 
to "deal with" such issues
 <OldMan> So, in case we've missed the point of my little tirade so 
far... if "the big players may try to kick our asses," those "big 
players" can bite me, too. :)
 <ChrHJW_zZZzz> and i cant type with one hand :)
 <ChrHJW_zZZzz> jack was saying MPC is not free
 <justin> ChrHJW_zZZzz: emacs has voice recognition IIRC
 <X-Caliber> I'm waiting for emacs as a kernel module
 <ChrHJW_zZZzz> ok, i have my both hands back :)
[00:23] * ChrHJW_zZZzz is now known as ChrisHJW
 <justin> ew
[00:23] * Bruns has joined #vorbis
[00:23] * wild_boar has joined #vorbis
 <ChrisHJW> MPC was opensource already, but Frank has a good reason not 
to do it, Garf can tell i guess
 <justin> please do Garf
 <ChrisHJW> if the SV7 sources would go online now, SV8 would die a hard 
death
 <X-Caliber> SV?
 <ChrisHJW> and the proposed changes for SV8 are huge, requiring a lot 
of time
[00:24] * wildboar has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
 <Garf> StreamVersion
 <justin> i can't beleive I spent over $200 in a month ordering pizza
[00:25] * justin orders pizza online
 <Garf> Only reason I know of that SV7 source isn't open is to prevent 
people messing with the encoder and marking files as 'stable'.
 <ChrisHJW> Garf knows much more about that than i do, i am just a 
helping hand for Frank
 <Garf> SV8 code I have seen includes SV7 stuff
 <Garf> IIRC
 <justin> i should instead donate to the vorbis and eat toast
 <ChrisHJW> the bitstream is completely different, and Frank will add 
much mores tuff, like DRC and multichannel
 <Emmett> Is MPC free?
 <ChrisHJW> yes
 <Emmett> Open != Free.
 <ChrisHJW> but not opensource yet
 <justin> exaclty
 <Garf> it's opensource, but not all encoders are open
 <justin> Emmett: link him to some RMS speeches .ogg
 <justin> ChrisHJW: one sec...
 <Emmett> Tell me if I'm wrong, but MPC/Musepack is still subject to 
MPEG licensure and patents?
 <ChrisHJW> nobody knows
 <justin> ask a lawyer
 <Emmett> Okay, then you probably shouldn't call it free.
 <ChrisHJW> its unclear, but recent searches have failed to find anybody 
wanting to license the only patent that is used clearly
 <justin>http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/audio/audio.html
 <justin> learn what Free really means.. lol :)
 <Emmett> Whether the patent is licensed or not, that doesn't mean it's 
an open and free standard.
 <Garf> define open and free standard
 <ChrisHJW> whether a format is CALLED patent free or not, that doesnt 
prevent it from maybe violating patents nobody knows of
 <justin> Garf: download those oggs on that link, order pizza, listen, 
and you will know
 <Emmett> By 'open,' I mean that the full specification is available, 
and you can create things with it out of the box. By 'Free,' I mean that 
you can do those things with it without making yourself (or your users) 
liable to anyone else.
[00:30] * adiabatic has joined #vorbis
 <Garf> I think only 'the full specification is available' would be tricky.
 <Garf> Just like ogg went for years without a full spec :)
 <ChrisHJW> lol
 <Emmett> I don't think those are terribly difficult things to get one's 
head around.
 <ChrisHJW> you`re not a coder Emmett
 <ChrisHJW> and i am not one also
 <Emmett> I'm not?
 <ChrisHJW> but your specs sucked for a long time
 <Emmett> You'll have to pardon me for a bit, here.
 <ChrisHJW> I am not here to start any flaming, i love Vorbis
 <Emmett> Christian, you have run your mouth several billion times and 
pissed off people left and right. I have done the same. The difference 
between us is that at the end of the day, I like to think I've done 
something useful.
 <ChrisHJW> I am not here to start any flaming, i love Vorbis
 <ChrisHJW> I am not here to start any flaming, i love Vorbis
 <ChrisHJW> I am not here to start any flaming, i love Vorbis
 <Emmett> Whereas you're a scenewhore that really has no fucking clue 
what's going on.
[00:33] * ChrisHJW is now known as ChrHJW_zZZzz
 <ChrHJW_zZZzz> nite Emmett
 <Emmett> Seeya later.
[00:33] * justin casts Wrath of God
 <justin> no flames
 <ChrHJW_zZZzz> leave this project alone, its doing better without you
 <justin> ahhhh
 <justin> sorry people
 <Emmett> I don't exactly see you stepping up to the plate to put in 
volunteer time.
 <ChrHJW_zZZzz> jack : if you fell like talking to me, you are always 
welcome on irc.corecodec.com #matroska
[00:34] * ChrHJW_zZZzz has left #vorbis
 <OldMan> Mission accomplished, eh?
[00:35] * Bruns has quit IRC (Client Exit: )
 <OldMan> wth was that guy anyway?
 <Emmett> Looks like it.
 <Emmett> He's ChristianHJW. He's sound and fury, etc.
 <OldMan> just another well-known gasbag, eh?
 <Emmett> He's the guy that flooded vorbis-dev about a year ago with 
'Matroska is better than Ogg,' etc.
 <OldMan> Not quite as notorious as ESR but working on it? :)
 <Emmett> Not quite.
 <Emmett> Christian is the guy that allies himself with projects, hoping 
that sooner or later, he'll 'advise' one that succeeds, and he'll be 
Very Important Indeed.
 <Emmett> It's actually quite the joke with a few people around here and 
other places.
[00:37] * OldMan arches an eyebrow. Rob Levin has a pseudonym?
 <Emmett> "Hey, it's a new project, and the people involved are claiming 
complete superiority over existing projects. Surprise! Christian's there!"
 <OldMan> so, what's this Matroska thing anyway?
 <X-Caliber> too much buzzwordy stuff in that project
 <Emmett> Matroska is a MCF-breakaway
 <Emmett> MCF is an attempt to hold virtually every kind of encoded 
multimedia in one file by using an extensible markup format.
 <OldMan> is it meant to compete with vorbis?
 <Emmett> No, it's meant to compete with Ogg.
 <OldMan> ohhhhhh, that one?
 <Emmett> Yah.
 <justin> whats the website?
 <alobodig-2>http://sourceforge.net/projects/matroska/?
 <Emmett> I think mcf is at mcf.sf.net
 <OldMan> Isn't that the one in which their status page showed that the 
IRC channel and Sourceforge project page came well before the production 
of any real code?
 <OldMan> Does it do anything yet?
 <zinx> Emmett: XML# should be used for everything!@#!
 <justin> lol
 <Emmett> I believe the MCF guys have gotten a few things working, but 
the Matroska team hasn't. I may be incorrect.
[00:40] * zinx makes a programming language based on XML
 <OldMan> zinx: too late... XSLT is turing-complete already.
 <zinx> hehe
 <OldMan> Now you're not being funny or clever, but just reinventing the 
wheel. :)
 <Garf> You flamed him away with a bunch of insults that had nothing to 
do with the issue he was defending. Congratulations, you're still an 
example of someone that has no fucking clue on how to argue without 
acting like a 14 year old.
 <justin> The aim is to get rid of all bad legacy in existing containers 
and build something new that could last 10 years.
 <justin> interesting
 <OldMan> How does that compare to ogg?
 <justin> did they arbitrarily pick 10 years?
 <adiabatic> "10 years" sounds nice.
 <justin> i think 7 is better
 <Emmett> Garf: I've debated him here on these issues more times than I 
care to count.
 <adiabatic> But that's not a multiple of 2. Hell, it's not even an even 
number.
 <whitestar> hey, don't make fun of me
 <whitestar> I'm fourteen years old.
 <atrus> adiabatic: it's better than even, it's prime
 <Garf> About WHAT issues have you debated him?
 <adiabatic> But you can't chop prime numbers in half and still get an 
integer.
[00:43] * whitestar nods
 <Emmett> Patent and licensing issues, the extensibility of Matroska, etc.
 <whitestar> XML4evar!@
 <Emmett> MPC and licensing, as well.
 <whitestar> Our audio format isn't even binary! It's in XML!
 <OldMan> hey... has anybody ever contrasted the pros & cons of MCF vs. Ogg?
 <whitestar> MCF droolz; Ogg rulez
 <atrus> adiabatic: ahem. 2.
 <Emmett> OldMan: It's been extremely difficult. MCF hasn't had code 
until extremely recently.
 <justin> at least ogg does have one portable device support, albeit alpha
 <adiabatic> Blasted corner case.
 <OldMan> well, how about the *intended* capabilities of each?
 <Emmett> The thing that started MCF was someone's misinterpretation 
about how Ogg handles timestamps.
 <Emmett> So the MCF team has said, 'Hey, we can do (feature X) where 
Ogg cannot.'
 <Emmett> And people familiar with Ogg have said, 'I've been 
implementing (feature X) with Ogg for the past year.'
 <OldMan> heh.
 <OldMan> The website is a bit thin on details at the moment.
 <OldMan> Looks like it's ALL just sour grapes and hot air at the moment.
 <whitestar> And a bit thin on real code, most likely.
 <Emmett> I do think MCF has a future in things like archiving and 
authoring formats.
 <OldMan> I think competition is good, choice is good, standards are good
 <OldMan> Let me know when these folks get around to providing any of 
the above.
 <Emmett> Agreed on all three, OldMan.
 <justin> i think free software leaves money for pizza
 <Emmett> But when the competition provided is mainly people wanking on 
vorbis-dev about the Once and Future Container That Has No Code, it's a 
pain in the ass for people who are actually trying to get things done.
 <Emmett> Open Source tends to work best as a code-first game.
 <OldMan> Emmett: that doesn't fit my definition of "competition."
 <Emmett> Here's my idea -> Here's my idea expressed as source code.
 <Emmett> and then (and only then) mad pimpage.
 <justin> Emmett: good point
[00:50] * whitestar throws up mad props to Emmett's mad pimpage
 <Emmett> But some people still don't get it, which causes irritation to 
those who do.
 <justin> i think companies do too much changing, testing, market 
analysis and in the end really that is how they create artificial needs 
and wants. its not like their code is born out of practicality/need.
 <light> ..
 <justin> sort of like how you work to drive and drive to work'
 <Emmett> I don't know if I agree with that. If the needs and wants are 
too artificial, no one will buy.
 <OldMan>http://sourceforge.net/projects/mcf
 <OldMan> This Project Has Not Released Any Files
 <justin> and we will reduce your capacity to communicate into a query 
search, text speaking paper clip
 <OldMan> and the news story said they've got a windows dll thingy in 
development that can do something
 <OldMan> and a java video muxer?
 <OldMan> youch.
 <justin> Emmett: dude. our WHOLE ecomony rests on AIR. this is why i 
buy gold. it's a mindless system of nothyingness.
 <Emmett> But here's something that may interest you.
 <Emmett> The Matroska team intends to maintain their own standard, as a 
self-sufficient standards body.
 <Emmett> Want your codec in there? It needs an ID.
 <Emmett> What will this ID cost you?
 <Emmett> Oh... they're not prepared to answer that quite yet.
 <whitestar> Hmm, I need to get more gold.
[00:55] * whitestar writes that down
 <OldMan> Emmett: hah
 <Garf> What will Vorbis 2 cost?
 <justin> whitestar: seriously. ive read many people who preddict the 
downfall of the us economy.
 <whitestar> One *meelyon* dollars.
 <whitestar> justin: I know, I wasn't joking.
 <whitestar> justin: Where do you keep yours?
 <Emmett> justin: People have been predicting the downfall of the US 
economy for years.
[00:56] * OldMan buys gold from ebay. It's usually pretty close to spot 
price.
 <justin> whitestar: e-gold of course
 <whitestar> That's a good idear.
 <Emmett> As well as the eventual rebellion and fall of the American Empire.
 <justin> Emmett: it's quite probably soon IMHO
 <Emmett> justin: I don't think so.
 <whitestar> If that happens, the TERRISTS HAEV ONE!@
 <Emmett> Remember, there's some joker in office who Wasn't Really 
Elected, and he's sent hundreds of thousands of people overseas to kill 
brown people. We've got concentration camps and who knows what else, and 
no one has yet violently reacted against the commonwealth from inside it.
 <justin> so what do you all think of DRM in WM9, longhorn
 <Emmett> Do you know why?
 <OldMan> justin: I highly *doubt* all the successful businessmen and 
investors who have driven the economy thus far are just going to let all 
their hard work magically disappear. There are a lot of stupid 
investors, and the federal reserve could probably do with a few more 
Austrian-school economists on staff, but it's not going to just go away 
quietly.
 <justin> no why
 <Emmett> Because an armed revolution would have to be on during 'Joe 
Millionaire.'
 

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