[matroska-general] Re: lavrec AVIs over 2Gig on ext3?

ChristianHJW christian at matroska.org
Sat Feb 1 22:32:57 CET 2003

"Ronald Bultje" <rbultje at ronald.bitfreak.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:1044103677.10976.8.camel at localhost.localdomain...
> Hey Chris,

Hi Ronald,

> On Sat, 2003-02-01 at 09:54, Christian HJ Wiesner wrote:
> > Virtualdub, probably the most used AVI tool on Windows doesnt support it
> > either although it can write OpenDML AVI. Cant remember what the reason
> > is, i guess it has to do with the version of the avi file handler Avery
> > is using in his code.
> Maybe related to the FAT32 filesize problems... Anyway, gstreamer does
> support > 2 GB AVI files, I'm still intending to port that over to
> mjpegtools somewhere in the 1.7 series.

No doubt, OpenDML AVI does support file sizes > 2 GB. I could certainly dig
up the info on the Vdub support board ( http://virtualdub.everwicked.com )
once we have our board back :-D ( right now we again exceeded bandwidth ).
Avery Lee himself is reading and posting there quite regulary and i am 100%
sure he was giving the reason in one thread why Vdub can not support bigger
files perfectly, but it was not related to FAT32 limitations.

> > Ogg Theora, OGM ( based on Ogg ), MCF and matroska do/will all support
> > - almost infinite ( arbitrary ) file sizes
> > - almost unlimited nr. of audio/video/subs streams
> > - VBR audio ( without hacks )
> > - menuing system
> > - chapters
> > - built in EDC/ECC in the file
> > - mode2 form 2 burning support ( 800 MB on one CD )
> > - variable video aspect ratio for all video codecs
> > - variable framerate ( not sure about Ogg )
> > etc.
> > Probably time to rethink using good old AVI sooner or later ?
> Which one will become the de facto standard? ;-). (I know you'll say
> matroska, this is just rethorical ;-) ).

I dont know, i cant look into the future ;-). Of course, my heart is with
matroska. The project fork from MCF was bad and unnecessary, but i was fully
backing Steve 'robux4' LHomme up in his decision to stop cooperation with
Lasse 'Tronic' Karkainen, the original MCF project founder. Its certainly
not the right place here to talk about details, so if anybody is interested
in them just drop me a mail to christian at matroska dot org .

About Ogg Theora and OGM, there is some hope still that OGM will find its
way into 'official' Ogg specs, now as the maker of OGM, Tobias Waldvogel,
has officially joined Xiph as Theora developer. It kinda worries me though
that there are still no OGM sources been uploaded to Xiph CVS since then, no
statements at all about actual Theora status ( check http://theora.org ) and
also it seems Monty is developing it completey away from public, hidden in a
cellar somewhere. Not sure about the real meaning of the word 'open' in
'opensource' anymore, to be honest. Does it just mean to release the sources
once they are done ? I always thought there is another meaning also, but
maybe i am wrong here. Its a bit strange when you have to learn that Dan B.
Miller, former CTO of ON2 ( AFAIK ) and helping hand with VP3 merging into
Theora has never heard of Tobias or his work ? Do these people ever talk to
each other ? If so, where ?

> Face it: Xine doesn't support either of them, neither does Windows Media
> Player.

Sorry mate, but thats not quite correct anymore. There is a file called
matroskparser.dll on my HDD and its a DirectShow filter, fully compatible
with WinMediaplayer ( any version from 6.4 will work ) and basically every
other DShow based player. Although its not updated to the last version of
library yet, it can play XviD/MP3 and also DivX/MP3 already, with every
DShow player. Of course, we will certainly never make into the standard
Windows install with it ( LOL ), but pls. be aware i am in contact with a
lot of win32 player developers and codec package authors for including the
parser, so hopefully we will be able to spread it pretty quickly. Once its
installed, there is no way back :P

> Don't know about mplayer, but since the last debian flamewar
> I've given up all hope on that one[1]. Concerning tech. details, I've
> only had a look on MCF some time ago, and OGM (though I only glanced at
> it). I'll need to have a deeper look before I can give an opinion on
> which of these I want to use (if any). They're all interesting, but
> nobody needs 4 additional container formats...
> Ronald

I agree. Well, as stated above, maybe Ogg and OGM will merge into one
container, although i have to admit i have doubts this will really ever
happen. In any case, only one of them will survive IMHO. Either the users
will simply ignore Monty's work on Theora and will continue putting their
movies into OGM ( that works fine even with ON2 VP3 = Theora now, thanks to
an existing VfW interface ) or OGM will be dropped in favour of Theora, or
they merge. For sure there wont be 2 video containers basing on Ogg.

Same is valid for MCF and matroska. Both are more or less just different
flavours of the same thing. Lasse wants easiness of parsing, matroska is
aiming for future extensability thanks to EBML (
http://sf.net/projects/ebml ) . I dont know if you will agree, but i
personally cant see any major CPU power being lost with parsing any
container, plus there seems to be a clear trend that in future the
en/decoding will be by about factor 10 more CPU intensive than today's
codecs, so IMHO it wont make any difference if a container is 'easy' to
parse or not, as in any case maybe max. 1% of the CPU power will have to be
invested in parsing. On the other hand, the big number of nasty hacks that
were applied to good old AVI over the years make it very clear to me that
extensability, without breaking backwards compatibility, IS an issue. So,
from my point of view there will only be one of them left also ( make a
guess which one :P ).

Makes 2 opensource containers in the end, Ogg/OGM for streaming,
matroska/MCF for editing/storing. But however it will all turn out to be in
the end, one thing is absolutely clear to me : good old AVI has certainly
seen the end of its days soon .....




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