[Matroska-devel] DVDtoOGM with Matroska support

Christian HJ Wiesner chris at matroska.org
Sat Nov 1 15:50:28 CET 2003

Hi Mosu,

first of all, let me say that this email, IMHO, should go to 
matroska-general and not to matroska-devel, as its not really 
development related. I copy matroska-general on it, and i recommend to 
reply to there insted. My answer can be found below.

Moritz Bunkus wrote:

>This conversation took place today:
>.12:21:42.< DVDtoOgm> Hi...
>.12:23:52.< DVDtoOgm> ChristianHJW available?
>.12:24:28.< alex_here> wake him up :p
>.12:24:43.< DVDtoOgm> oh... sleeping :-)
>.12:25:06.< DVDtoOgm> do you know when he's usually here?
>.12:25:14.< alex_here> what do you need him for?
>.12:25:33.< DVDtoOgm> talking about DVDtoOgm and Matroska...
>.12:25:49.< alex_here> you don't need him for that :)
>.12:25:51.<@Mosu> he's in china at the moment,
>.12:26:09.< DVDtoOgm> wow... seems to be far away from talking with me :-)
>.12:26:13.<@Mosu> but he's online from time to time
>.12:26:32.< DVDtoOgm> well might be hard to catch this time 
>.12:26:56.< DVDtoOgm> when will he return from there? do you know?
>.12:27:21.< alex_here> another question: what does he know what we don't?
>.12:27:32.< DVDtoOgm> well, let me tell you:
>.12:28:09.< DVDtoOgm> He asked me, if I'm interested in making DVDtoOgm (maybe with another name) to the official Matroska support tool...
>.12:28:25.< DVDtoOgm> and he invited me to come here...
>.12:28:31.< alex_here> The tool as in 'the one and only'?
>.12:29:07.< DVDtoOgm> well, somethink like this...
>.12:29:39.< alex_here> omg
>.12:29:57.<@Mosu> oyg? :)
>.12:30:09.< DVDtoOgm> we had a german conversation via eMail and he posted some requests in the official german DVDtoOgm-Frounm
>.12:30:14.< DVDtoOgm> Forum, sorry
>.12:30:20.< alex_here> what does he always need such things for :(
>.12:30:30.< DVDtoOgm> for what?
>.12:30:34.< alex_here> can you give a link?
>.12:30:50.< DVDtoOgm> forum or DVDtoOgm-Homepage?
>.12:30:54.<@Mosu> the latter
>.12:30:57.< alex_here> forum
>.12:31:02.<@Mosu> doh :)
>.12:31:06.<@Mosu> for both, then ;)
>.12:31:08.< alex_here> better just the corresponding thread
>.12:31:17.< DVDtoOgm> second..
>.12:31:31.< DVDtoOgm> (its german, remember) :-)
>.12:31:42.-!- P0l1m0rph1c [~Dcoder at CC-3BB7AC4E.telepac.pt] has joined #matroska
>.12:31:49.< alex_here> solange es nicht chinesisch ist...
>.12:32:19.<@Mosu> genau
>.12:32:20.< DVDtoOgm> http://www.flaskmpeg.info/board/thread.php?threadid=3885&sid=
>.12:32:24.<@Mosu> solange is uns das schon recht ;)
>.12:32:26.< DVDtoOgm> na also...
>.12:32:44.< DVDtoOgm> das klingt doch gut... und ich brech mir hier einen in englisch ab...
>.12:33:08.< DVDtoOgm> naja, es kommen auch noch ein paar eMail dazu, die er geschrieben hat.
>.12:33:23.<@Mosu> offizielle sprache des channels is auch englisch ;)
>.12:33:25.-!- jcsston_zZz [jcsston at 207534E3.F8ECB96B.1AF242AD.IP] has joined #matroska
>.12:33:35.< alex_here> "das klingt doch gut... und ich brech mir hier einen in englisch ab..." <= liegt daran, daß es unfreundlich ist, deutsch zu reden, weil das hier net jeder kann
>.12:33:42.-!- jcsston_zZz is now known as jcsston
>.12:33:42.< alex_here> französisch ginge also notfalls auch noch ;)
>.12:33:46.<@Mosu> wir haben zu viele franzosen, die kein deutsch koennen (und zu viele amis, die ebenfals kein deutsch koennen ;))
>.12:33:47.< DVDtoOgm> Homepage von DVDtoOgm ist http://DVDtoOgm.DivX-Digest.com
>.12:33:56.< DVDtoOgm> ok, then back to english...
>.12:34:02.< DVDtoOgm> I'll try...
>.12:34:22.< alex_here> ?????? :)
>.12:34:35.<@Mosu> ah. well something like dvdtoogm is still missing for matroska, that's true
>.12:34:55.<@Mosu> as gknot won't have matroska support soon
>.12:35:22.< DVDtoOgm> yes... I'm very close to a new release, which will try to come close to the features that are offered by GKnot...
>.12:35:36.< alex_here> yeah...this guy does not get the fact the matroska overhead prediction is not done using a simple formula :(
>.12:35:47.< alex_here> the=that
>.12:35:52.< DVDtoOgm> Then I would be very interested in a full MKV support, which is atm not very good...
>.12:36:01.<@Mosu> great to hear :)
>.12:36:12.< DVDtoOgm> BUT:
>.12:36:21.<@Mosu> everything you've listed on the 'was ist dvdtoogm?' page is definitely possible with matroska
>.12:36:46.< DVDtoOgm> Christian told me DVDtoOgm have to be open-source for that...
>.12:36:50.<@Mosu> hmm
>.12:36:53.<@Mosu> depends
>.12:37:00.* alex_here has read that thread :o
>.12:37:17.< DVDtoOgm> and thats not really what i want it to be... :-)
>.12:37:21.<@Mosu> if you 'only' use other open source tools, e.g. my mkvmerge, then it's not required, i think
>.12:37:33.<@Mosu> but if you re-use our code then your code has to be gpl'ed as well
>.12:38:03.< DVDtoOgm> all, used in Code used in DVDtoOgm is self coded...
>.12:38:13.< alex_here> really?
>.12:38:13.< DVDtoOgm> or I asked for permission...
>.12:38:13.<@Mosu> judging from the 'was ist dvdtoogm' page i'd say that calling an external app would suffice for all those tasks
>.12:38:23.< alex_here> you don't use libvorbis and such crap?
>.12:39:02.< DVDtoOgm> well just a Mpeg2Dec.dll and some external Tools like VDubMod...
>.12:39:09.< DVDtoOgm> no libvorbis so far...
>.12:39:21.< DVDtoOgm> (MKV support is just about to start)
>.12:39:32.< alex_here> without libmatroska, right? :D
>.12:39:55.< DVDtoOgm> you just can choose mkv output...
>.12:39:56.<@Mosu> i think dvdtoogm does not write ogm files itself but haves other apps do that for it
>.12:40:03.<@Mosu> haves !?
>.12:40:04.<@Mosu> omg
>.12:40:09.<@Mosu> am i totally brain damaged now?
>.12:40:11.< DVDtoOgm> VirtualDubMod 
>.12:40:12.< alex_here> ah
>.12:40:31.< alex_here> "Mosu	am i totally brain damaged now?" <= :)
>.12:40:35.<@Mosu> so yes, matroska could be realized in the same way then without your code having to be open source
>.12:40:46.< alex_here> "DVDtoOgm	VirtualDubMod " <= i hope you don't use those builds which write b0rked files
>.12:41:06.<@Mosu> alex_here: i'm fighting with/against automake at the moment, so every mistake i make here is already excused ;)
>.12:41:10.< alex_here> http://www.flaskmpeg.info/board/thread.php?threadid=3875&sid=50423e391c98b3367dac176cba742902 <= lol
>.12:41:11.< DVDtoOgm> The new DVDtoOgm Release 1.40 (out soon)
>.12:42:04.< DVDtoOgm> uses VDubMod 1.5.4
>.12:42:12.< alex_here> which one?
>.12:42:18.< alex_here> builds 2092 and earlier are b0rked
>.12:42:18.< DVDtoOgm> after I requestsd the spli feature...
>.12:42:38.< DVDtoOgm> it is 2092
>.12:42:45.< alex_here> :-)
>.12:42:53.< DVDtoOgm> but a update is no problem...
>.12:42:57.< alex_here> this one suffers from a b0rk in libebml :D
>.12:43:01.< alex_here> good
>.12:43:15.< DVDtoOgm> its not released yet...
>.12:43:20.<@Mosu> ah yes, after having read the thread i know why christian insisted on opensource software
>.12:43:31.<@Mosu> well i personally don't think it's THAT bad
>.12:43:38.<@Mosu> because you're not one of our core members
>.12:43:46.< alex_here> he's a bit paranoid
>.12:44:06.<@Mosu> so if you write some closed-source app no one can say that we (as in 'the core matroska devels') want world domination and a shitload of money
>.12:44:06.< DVDtoOgm> I can understand him, but I'm not really interested in doing so out of 2 reasons...
>.12:44:10.< alex_here> he even protested when i added possibilities to intentionally write b0rked files for testing purposes in avi-mux gui
>.12:44:51.-!- Toff_eating is now known as Toff
>.12:45:18.< DVDtoOgm> well so I'll be glad to help Matroska with DVDtoOgm, but I dislike to go open source for this...
>.12:45:40.<@Mosu> i think we can come to   an agreement here
>.12:45:42.< DVDtoOgm> if a closed source tool is ok, I would be VERY happy to help...
>.12:45:54.<@Mosu> i'd say 'yes'
>.12:46:02.<@Mosu> and we'll convince chris, too
>.12:46:10.< DVDtoOgm> yes to closed sourse?
>.12:46:13.< DVDtoOgm> source
>.12:46:21.<@Mosu> yes
>.12:46:26.< DVDtoOgm> that sounds nice...
>.12:46:30.<@Mosu> but lemme get this straight
>.12:46:38.< DVDtoOgm> yes?
>.12:46:50.<@Mosu> your app calls external apsp for most of the work, e.g. muxing, extracting etc?
>.12:47:00.< DVDtoOgm> yepp....
>.12:47:07.<@Mosu> ok, then closed source ain't a problem for me
>.12:47:16.< DVDtoOgm> you can easily compare DVDtoOgm to Gordian Knot...
>.12:47:24.<@Mosu> that's what i thought
>.12:47:27.< DVDtoOgm> just for Ogm...
>.12:47:31.<@Mosu> i just wanted to make sure
>.12:47:58.< DVDtoOgm> maybe you should download DVDtoOgm and have a look at it...
>.12:48:06.< DVDtoOgm> (a older release)
>.12:48:07.<@Mosu> i usually don't use windows ;)
>.12:48:15.< DVDtoOgm> oh :-)
>.12:48:31.< DVDtoOgm> but very much people do so :-)
>.12:48:42.<@Mosu> i know :)
>.12:48:48.< DVDtoOgm> ok...
>.12:48:50.< DVDtoOgm> so:
>.12:49:37.< DVDtoOgm> I'll release DVDtoOgm 1.40 (which is almost finished...) and after this we'll work on Matroska support...
>.12:49:40.< DVDtoOgm> :-)
>.12:49:45.<@Mosu> sounds great
>.12:49:50.< DVDtoOgm> Hust an important note:
>.12:49:55.< DVDtoOgm> Hust -> Just
>.12:50:19.< DVDtoOgm> My knowledge about coding is not sooo good...
>.12:50:38.< alex_here> that's more than Christian :)
>.12:50:42.< DVDtoOgm> I learned in school and the rest I thought myself..
>.12:51:04.< alex_here> the only thing I was *taught* is Haskell
>.12:51:16.< alex_here> you can't be taught coding 
>.12:51:22.< DVDtoOgm> slowly I'm rewriting parts of DVDtoOgm to make them better, but I'm still not a hero on coding...
>.12:51:29.<@Mosu> hey, if you've gotten so far with dvdtoogm then the rest won't be much harder
>.12:51:43.< DVDtoOgm> Hehe, nice to hear :-)
>.12:51:56.<@Mosu> don't worry, not everyone here is the Superhero of Effective Coding either ;)
>.12:52:01.< DVDtoOgm> DVDtoOgm is in Delphi (like you might guessed)
>.12:52:09.< alex_here> omg :p
>.12:52:32.< DVDtoOgm> ok, this sounds all very good...
>.12:52:59.< DVDtoOgm> So, next problem:
>.12:53:12.< DVDtoOgm> Never worked with Mkv bevore :-(
>.12:53:29.< DVDtoOgm> I just concentrated on ogm, so what are the current features?
>.12:53:33.< Rounin> Anyone wanna come up with a name for my text editor? (Sorry to interrupt, btw)
>.12:54:53.< DVDtoOgm> ???
>.12:55:18.< Rounin> Yeah, that could work
>.12:55:24.<@Mosu> Rounin: how about 'puke'? :)
>.12:56:02.< jcsston> or 'Runny' ?
>.12:56:05.< DVDtoOgm> Äh?!?
>.12:56:05.< Rounin> T_T Beautiful...
>.12:56:19.<@Mosu> DVDtoOgm: well basically it can do everything ogm can do and then some. implemented in various tools are e.g. realvideo, usual mpeg4 video, ac3/aac/mp3/dts/vorbis/realaudio, srt subs, ssa subs, vobsubs, chapters, tags
>.12:56:21.< DVDtoOgm> So what about the features of Mkv for now...
>.12:56:21.< Rounin> Hahaha... I'm actively considering that last one
>.12:56:34.< DVDtoOgm> ah...
>.12:56:35.< DVDtoOgm> THX
>.12:57:03.< DVDtoOgm> That sounds good...
>.12:57:04.<@Mosu> vdubmod can handle most of them, mkvmerge can handle all of those
>.12:57:25.<@Mosu> mkvmerge is a command line program for creating matroska files
>.12:57:38.<@Mosu> alex_here's avi-mux gui is a gui app for the same purpose
>.12:57:46.< DVDtoOgm> Ok, so the handling of Ogm and MKV in VDubMod ist the same=
>.12:57:47.< Rounin> Äh is go... I wonder if I could find some Swedish phrase to make it into an acronym
>.12:57:48.< DVDtoOgm> ?
>.12:58:10.<@Mosu> basically yes, but i'm no expert on this topic
>.12:58:16.<@Mosu> you'd have to ask cyrius when he's here
>.12:58:26.<@Mosu> which is usually afternoon/evenings
>.12:58:33.< DVDtoOgm> ok, got to chat with Cyruis again, he :-))
>.12:58:59.< alex_here> "Ok, so the handling of Ogm and MKV in VDubMod ist the same=" <= not really. You should not even dream about joining several mkv files into one file using vdm
>.12:59:09.< DVDtoOgm> we had a lot a conversation already...
>.12:59:39.< DVDtoOgm> so no muxing with VirtualDubMod?
>.12:59:44.< DVDtoOgm> for Mkv?
>.12:59:58.<@Mosu> hehehe
>.12:59:59.< alex_here> muxing ey
>.13:00:02.< alex_here> yes
>.13:00:09.< alex_here> but don't use MKV as input
>.13:00:24.< DVDtoOgm> well, input would be avi...
>.13:00:27.<@Mosu> that wouldn't be necessary, i think
>.13:00:32.<@Mosu> so yes, vdubmod can be used
>.13:00:33.< alex_here> good
>.13:00:34.<@Mosu> but
>.13:00:37.<@Mosu> talk to cyrius ;)
>.13:00:56.< DVDtoOgm> jepp, I'll do so, after DVDtoOgm 1.40 is out...
>.13:01:30.< DVDtoOgm> This sounds all very nice... we just need a Name :-))))
>.13:02:00.< DVDtoOgm> DVDto -> OGM <- wouldn't be best!
>.13:02:34.< alex_here> DVDtoAVI :)
>.13:02:45.< DVDtoOgm> why that?
>.13:02:53.-!- bond [~bond at CC-E4F8D42.adsl.univie.ac.at] has quit []
>.13:02:56.< DVDtoOgm> DVDto???
>.13:03:03.< alex_here> because I like AVI :)
>.13:03:22.-!- superdump [~Robert at 213FF3BD.86FDEB6A.1A13A32B.IP] has quit [Connection reset by peer]
>.13:03:31.< DVDtoOgm> yeah well, the name should not be of what you like and what you don't ;-)
>.13:03:48.< DVDtoOgm> ok... so lets stop here... i got work to do...
>.13:03:49.<@Mosu> DVDtoSomethingBetter ;)
>.13:03:51.<@Mosu> me too
>.13:03:59.<@Mosu> have to go to minimal
>.13:04:09.< DVDtoOgm> well check that all in about 2-3 weeks :-9
>.13:04:58.< DVDtoOgm> Thank you, for this information... and habe a chat to christian about this open source stuff :-)
>.13:05:11.<@Mosu> i'll write an email, too, with this conversation
>.13:05:15.-!- Insolit [~81.84.13. at 3402A868.16EA7345.340977B5.IP] has quit [Ping timeout]
>.13:05:19.< DVDtoOgm> Good bye... Thx for help!
>.13:05:24.<@Mosu> anyway, be back later
>.13:05:26.<@Mosu> you're welcome
>.13:05:27.< DVDtoOgm> @ Mosu: THX
>.13:05:27.-!- You're now known as MosuAway
>.13:05:35.< DVDtoOgm> CU
>I've expressed my thoughts already during the conversation, but I really
>don't see that DVDtoOGM going OpenSource should be a neccessity. He'll
>just use our _apps_, not our _code_. This project could be a good
>replacement for GKnot's Matroska support which is not coming. And no one
>can really accuse us in this case 'cause it's a totally different
>project/person who will use our tools. We (as in 'the core Matroska
>devels') are all OpenSource. A ClosedSource app is going to use our
>tools. So what?
>My vote is 'go for it!'.
To understand why i am so paranoid about going opensource with such a 
tool is founded on a couple of reasons :

1. I was planning to make this program a fixed part of the complete 
matroska project, not just an app that will output MKV files, like many 
others. As such, it HAS to be opensource, as a nobody will understadn 
that an opensource team is promoting a closed source app as main 
creation program. Our 'enemies', if we have such, would love to get such 
an argument from us, to use it against us. In short, if DVDtoMKV would 
not go opensource, we can list it as an app supporting MKV creation, but 
i wont push it as the official tool then. Sorry, but i am not willing to 
negotiate here. Of course, any other project admin can do whatever he 
likes in this respect, but then he will have to invest his time.

2. DVD, like so many other coders, is simply freightened to publish his 
code because he feels to be critized for his coding style, of which he 
is uncertain, thats all. Apart from that, there is no sensible reason 
not to go opensource with it. Even worse, if he went opensource with it, 
and if we made sure that new devs wanting to join the team are not 
treated like in other, similar projects, means there is one developer 
playing Mr. Big Boss, blocking new code best he can if its not coming 
from him, etc. , then DVDtoMKV could become an excellent program and 
opensource project. Furthermore, corecodec.org needs a tool such as 
DVDtoMKV, and opensource, as such a tool can lead a lot of attraction to 
the whole community.

3.  DVDtoMKV, the offiicial MKV DVD backup tool, has to use mkvmerge for 
MKV creation, and nothing else. VdubMod, although being an excellent 
tool and a great basis for the usability of MKV ( pls. dont get me wrong 
here ), simply doesnt support enough of MKVs extraordinary features such 
as aspect ratio correction, SSA subs muxing, vobsub muxing, etc. More 
specifically, all features VdubMod supports in MKV are usable for OGM 
also, so we arent any better than it if it is used.

@ DVD : stop sobbing around, go to corecodec.org and create a new 
project called DVDtoMKV there :P !!! There is no reason to be afraid 
about your coding style and such shit, just do it, and you will see that 
going opensource and hearing what other people do different than you, is 
the ONLY real possibility to learn a better coding style ! As long as 
your proggie is closed, it will give you more experience, but only more 
experience in using your very own coding style, you will never be able 
to open your horizon that way ! See the difference ??

As soon as DVD agrees to do that and to use mkvmerge ( he will :D ) and 
the project is created on corecodec.org, i will write a detailled 
feature list the program should be able to handle. Of course, not 
tomorrow, i meanwhile know how opensource stuff is wroking out .... you 
need to be very very patient  ;-) .....


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