From christian at matroska.org  Sat Feb  1 22:32:57 2003
From: christian at matroska.org (ChristianHJW)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 22:32:57 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: lavrec AVIs over 2Gig on ext3?
References: <D56B01B8EAA2F0448C873830CB77230E031E22BE@rearadmiral.logistics.int> <1043350727.14173.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <b1g1sg$f9v$1@main.gmane.org> <1044103677.10976.8.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <b1heai$p0g$1@main.gmane.org>


"Ronald Bultje" <rbultje at ronald.bitfreak.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:1044103677.10976.8.camel at localhost.localdomain...
> Hey Chris,

Hi Ronald,

> On Sat, 2003-02-01 at 09:54, Christian HJ Wiesner wrote:
> > Virtualdub, probably the most used AVI tool on Windows doesnt support it
> > either although it can write OpenDML AVI. Cant remember what the reason
> > is, i guess it has to do with the version of the avi file handler Avery
> > is using in his code.
> Maybe related to the FAT32 filesize problems... Anyway, gstreamer does
> support > 2 GB AVI files, I'm still intending to port that over to
> mjpegtools somewhere in the 1.7 series.

No doubt, OpenDML AVI does support file sizes > 2 GB. I could certainly dig
up the info on the Vdub support board ( http://virtualdub.everwicked.com )
once we have our board back :-D ( right now we again exceeded bandwidth ).
Avery Lee himself is reading and posting there quite regulary and i am 100%
sure he was giving the reason in one thread why Vdub can not support bigger
files perfectly, but it was not related to FAT32 limitations.

> > Ogg Theora, OGM ( based on Ogg ), MCF and matroska do/will all support
> > - almost infinite ( arbitrary ) file sizes
> > - almost unlimited nr. of audio/video/subs streams
> > - VBR audio ( without hacks )
> > - menuing system
> > - chapters
> > - built in EDC/ECC in the file
> > - mode2 form 2 burning support ( 800 MB on one CD )
> > - variable video aspect ratio for all video codecs
> > - variable framerate ( not sure about Ogg )
> > etc.
> > Probably time to rethink using good old AVI sooner or later ?
>
> Which one will become the de facto standard? ;-). (I know you'll say
> matroska, this is just rethorical ;-) ).

I dont know, i cant look into the future ;-). Of course, my heart is with
matroska. The project fork from MCF was bad and unnecessary, but i was fully
backing Steve 'robux4' LHomme up in his decision to stop cooperation with
Lasse 'Tronic' Karkainen, the original MCF project founder. Its certainly
not the right place here to talk about details, so if anybody is interested
in them just drop me a mail to christian at matroska dot org .

About Ogg Theora and OGM, there is some hope still that OGM will find its
way into 'official' Ogg specs, now as the maker of OGM, Tobias Waldvogel,
has officially joined Xiph as Theora developer. It kinda worries me though
that there are still no OGM sources been uploaded to Xiph CVS since then, no
statements at all about actual Theora status ( check http://theora.org ) and
also it seems Monty is developing it completey away from public, hidden in a
cellar somewhere. Not sure about the real meaning of the word 'open' in
'opensource' anymore, to be honest. Does it just mean to release the sources
once they are done ? I always thought there is another meaning also, but
maybe i am wrong here. Its a bit strange when you have to learn that Dan B.
Miller, former CTO of ON2 ( AFAIK ) and helping hand with VP3 merging into
Theora has never heard of Tobias or his work ? Do these people ever talk to
each other ? If so, where ?

> Face it: Xine doesn't support either of them, neither does Windows Media
> Player.

Sorry mate, but thats not quite correct anymore. There is a file called
matroskparser.dll on my HDD and its a DirectShow filter, fully compatible
with WinMediaplayer ( any version from 6.4 will work ) and basically every
other DShow based player. Although its not updated to the last version of
library yet, it can play XviD/MP3 and also DivX/MP3 already, with every
DShow player. Of course, we will certainly never make into the standard
Windows install with it ( LOL ), but pls. be aware i am in contact with a
lot of win32 player developers and codec package authors for including the
parser, so hopefully we will be able to spread it pretty quickly. Once its
installed, there is no way back :P

> Don't know about mplayer, but since the last debian flamewar
> I've given up all hope on that one[1]. Concerning tech. details, I've
> only had a look on MCF some time ago, and OGM (though I only glanced at
> it). I'll need to have a deeper look before I can give an opinion on
> which of these I want to use (if any). They're all interesting, but
> nobody needs 4 additional container formats...
> Ronald

I agree. Well, as stated above, maybe Ogg and OGM will merge into one
container, although i have to admit i have doubts this will really ever
happen. In any case, only one of them will survive IMHO. Either the users
will simply ignore Monty's work on Theora and will continue putting their
movies into OGM ( that works fine even with ON2 VP3 = Theora now, thanks to
an existing VfW interface ) or OGM will be dropped in favour of Theora, or
they merge. For sure there wont be 2 video containers basing on Ogg.

Same is valid for MCF and matroska. Both are more or less just different
flavours of the same thing. Lasse wants easiness of parsing, matroska is
aiming for future extensability thanks to EBML (
http://sf.net/projects/ebml ) . I dont know if you will agree, but i
personally cant see any major CPU power being lost with parsing any
container, plus there seems to be a clear trend that in future the
en/decoding will be by about factor 10 more CPU intensive than today's
codecs, so IMHO it wont make any difference if a container is 'easy' to
parse or not, as in any case maybe max. 1% of the CPU power will have to be
invested in parsing. On the other hand, the big number of nasty hacks that
were applied to good old AVI over the years make it very clear to me that
extensability, without breaking backwards compatibility, IS an issue. So,
from my point of view there will only be one of them left also ( make a
guess which one :P ).

Makes 2 opensource containers in the end, Ogg/OGM for streaming,
matroska/MCF for editing/storing. But however it will all turn out to be in
the end, one thing is absolutely clear to me : good old AVI has certainly
seen the end of its days soon .....

Regards

Christian



http://matroska.org



From christian at matroska.org  Sat Feb  1 23:04:40 2003
From: christian at matroska.org (ChristianHJW)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 23:04:40 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: lavrec AVIs over 2Gig on ext3?
References: <D56B01B8EAA2F0448C873830CB77230E031E22BE@rearadmiral.logistics.int><1043350727.14173.24.camel@localhost.localdomain><b1g1sg$f9v$1@main.gmane.org><1044103677.10976.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20030201154104.5144111e.martin@mkcollins.org>
Message-ID: <b1hg61$v6s$1@main.gmane.org>


"Martin Collins" <martin at mkcollins.org> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:20030201154104.5144111e.martin at mkcollins.org...
> On 01 Feb 2003 13:47:58 +0100
> OGM has a head start here. Many of the DVD ripping gurus (eg.
> alt.binaries.monter-movies) are using it with XVid/vorbis, even
> the Windows guys.
> Don't give up on MPlayer, it may not get an official .deb but it
> still works and many people are using it. It does play OGMs and
> in combination with Moritz Bunkus' ogmtools you can create them too.
> There are also DirectShow filters for playing OGMs in WMP.

Please allow me to point out that OGM has its origin in a DirectShow filter,
or to be more precise in 2 of them :

- a Dshow based OGM muxer, including Vorbis encoder
- a OGM parser for DShow

The first OGM files were created with Graphedit, the Windows DirectShow GUI,
made by M$. In a second step koepi made a nice GUI for it ( but still
calling the DShow muxer ), and only in a third step Moritz Bunkus was
capable of 'reverse engineer' Tobias filters and create Linux tools for the
format. It was Alban 'albeu' Bedel who added OGM parsing to mplayer, and
again Moritz Bunkus who could solve some bugs ( seeking, etc. )

> Surely that's only three :-) I believe the MCF spec is still not
> complete. OGM may not be completely specified either but it's out
> there and people are using it. Matroska may be the best long-term bet,
> but only if people think it better than OGM.
> Martin

Thanks for the kind words. Yes, we consider matroska as a solution designed
for the future. We dont know if people will prefer it against OGM, but we
also have a few things prepared to hold against it ;-)  :

UCI   ( Universal Codec Interface; http://uci.sf.net )
USF   ( Universal Subtitle Format ; http://corecodec.org/projects/usf )
UMI

OGM is mainly a VfW video stream packed into Ogg. Sorry for the arrogance,
but we cant see it as a real challenge for matroska and the concept behind
it.

Regards

Christian



http://matroska.org



From Paul at msn.com  Mon Feb  3 05:39:15 2003
From: Paul at msn.com (Pamel)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 22:39:15 -0600
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: lavrec AVIs over 2Gig on ext3?
References: <D56B01B8EAA2F0448C873830CB77230E031E22BE@rearadmiral.logistics.int><1043350727.14173.24.camel@localhost.localdomain><b1g1sg$f9v$1@main.gmane.org><1044103677.10976.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20030201154104.5144111e.martin@mkcollins.org> <b1hg61$v6s$1@main.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <b1krlr$q2c$1@main.gmane.org>

"ChristianHJW" <christian at matroska.org> wrote
> "Martin Collins" <martin at mkcollins.org> schrieb
> > OGM may not be completely specified either but it's out there
> > and people are using it. Matroska may be the best long-term bet,
> > but only if people think it better than OGM.

I have only seen OGM get limited use so far.  I think that this is mainly
because OGM was never backed by Xiph, and so not 'official'.  IMHO, I don't
believe that the new OGG specs that Monty is making will resemble OGM that
much, but that is probably better as I'm sure that it will be geared more
towards streaming (which is the whole point of OGG in the first place).  The
technique developed by Tobias was cool, but probably not a good long-term
solution.  But I think that with Xiph backing an official spec for putting
different video and audio streams in OGG, it will become much more popular.

Matroska isn't trying to be 'better than OGM', as they aren't very
comparable.  OGM will almost certainly just be replace by whatever Xiph puts
out, and fall by the wayside.  And OGG and Matroska aren't trying to be
better than one another as they don't really fill the same demographic.  OGG
was designed specificaly for streaming.  Matroska was designed specificaly
for editing with maximum future extensibility.  They will most certainly do
better for what they were designed for, but comparing them directly would be
like comparing apples and oranges (both of which I like very much).

> Thanks for the kind words. Yes, we consider matroska as a solution
designed
> for the future. We dont know if people will prefer it against OGM, but we
> also have a few things prepared to hold against it ;-)  :

Well, we're not holding anything 'against' OGM, its a moot point. ;-)

> UCI   ( Universal Codec Interface; http://uci.sf.net )
> USF   ( Universal Subtitle Format ; http://corecodec.org/projects/usf )

Hopefully these will turn out properly and everyone will use if for both
OGG, Matroska, AVI, etc.  I have some doubts about how UCI is being
developed, but I have already talked extensively about that on the UCI.devel
mailing list.  I basicaly think that a standard for communication between
applications, codecs, and containers should be developed simultaneously, but
that is a different story.

> UMI

I honestly don't know what this is.  I found it at http://umi.sf.net but it
looks like it resides between the application and the OS.  I think this may
be more specific to finding for application support, not containers or
codecs.  But, I am all for cross-platform, open interfaces.


Pamel



http://matroska.org



From christian at matroska.org  Mon Feb  3 10:20:59 2003
From: christian at matroska.org (Christian HJ Wiesner)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 10:20:59 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] New, closed source A/V container format called 'MPX'
Message-ID: <015401c2cb65$93637760$a70aa8c0@mahlo.de>

http://www.borgtech.org/mpx/

Thanks to Jory 'Jccston' i found this link. It seems to be closed source, they have a DShow filter and a muxer tool it seems.

Trying to contact them now.

Christian

http://matroska.org



From belgabor at gmx.de  Mon Feb  3 11:27:42 2003
From: belgabor at gmx.de (belgabor at gmx.de)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 11:27:42 +0100 (MET)
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: [Mcf-general] New, closed source A/V container format called 'MPX'
References: <015401c2cb65$93637760$a70aa8c0@mahlo.de>
Message-ID: <6331.1044268062@www66.gmx.net>


> http://www.borgtech.org/mpx/
> 
> Thanks to Jory 'Jccston' i found this link. It seems to be closed 
> source, they have a DShow filter and a muxer tool it seems.
> 
> Trying to contact them now.
> 
> Christian
> 
I don't think anyone will ever use this... (Closed Source, no specs... How
on earth should that work on linux without a big hassle?)

Tobias

-- 
+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more  http://www.gmx.net +++
NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr f?r 1 ct/ Min. surfen!

http://matroska.org



From christian at matroska.org  Mon Feb  3 10:24:24 2003
From: christian at matroska.org (Christian HJ Wiesner)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 10:24:24 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Opensource, open standard multimedia container format
Message-ID: <015d01c2cb66$0bccd070$a70aa8c0@mahlo.de>

Hi,

a friend just had pointed me to your homepage and the link about mpx. I just wnated to inform you that

matroska on http://matroska.org

is serving the same needs, but is opensource and open standard, covered by GPL and QPL licenses.

Supported codecs will be

- all VfW codecs

http://matroska.org



From christian at matroska.org  Mon Feb  3 10:29:18 2003
From: christian at matroska.org (Christian HJ Wiesner)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 10:29:18 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Opensource, open standard multimedia container format
Message-ID: <016a01c2cb66$be90f970$a70aa8c0@mahlo.de>

Hi,

a friend just had pointed me to your homepage and the link about mpx. I just wnated to inform you that

matroska on http://matroska.org

is serving the same needs, but is opensource and open standard, covered by GPL and QPL licenses.

Supported codecs will be

- all VfW codecs ( DivX, XviD, MP4V2/3, etc. )

- all ACM codecs ( MP3 CBR )

- all MPEG4 profiles ( SP, SAP, AP )

- AC3, AAC

- Vorbis, Theora, Tarkin

- Lame ( MP3 VBR )

- MPC ( musepack )

etc.


If you are interested to learn more about it or to join our team please visit us on irc.corecodec.com #matroska or subscribe to our mailing lists on http://freelists.org , matroska-devel , matroska-general, matroska-cvs

Regards

ChristianHJW
http://matroska.org
christian at matroska.org


http://matroska.org



From christian.hj.wiesner at web.de  Mon Feb  3 17:27:40 2003
From: christian.hj.wiesner at web.de (ChristianHJW)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 17:27:40 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] MPC opensource project founded on corecodec.org
Message-ID: <000f01c2cba1$3b400620$a70aa8c0@mahlo.de>

Gentlemen,

i have the pleasure to announce that today the MPC opensource project was founded on http://corecodec.org .

The preliminary URL is http://corecodec.org/projects/mpc until a nice homepage was done for http://mpc.corecodec.org ( i'd love to copy Frank's or case's homepage for the time being ;) ... no time and no talent to create a new one ).

Some parts of the MPC encoder sources were already sent to Steve 'robux4' LHomme from Frank Klemm to be uploaded to the CVS tree once we have it functional ( waiting for a patch from gforge author ). Please note also that Steve and Frank are talking about creating this project together, means Steve actively participating on MPC development.

Important :

Please do not publically announce this for the time being !!! The people reading this list here can be considered a very small group ( this will include the lurkers from Xiph via gmane.org ;) ), and it wont hurt us much if the news would be spread out now, but i would like to ask you to avoid any form of advertisement for the time being, if ever possible. This information is sent to you to avoid any bad feelings, and to also give you the chance to object to the foundation of the project if you feel this had to be done, for whatever reason.


There are also some important decisions pending :

1. Webboard. Normally it is in the scope of the corecodec community supplies to have a dedicated webforum for every opensource project hosted on Corecodec. However, as there already is a very well working MPC section on hydrogenaudio, and with respect to the very friendly and cooperative relations the Corecodec team has with the admins of this community, it may be worth considering to not follow the corecodec policy here and use the HA.org forums instead.

2. Mailing Lists : I am not aware of any MLs for MPC. If there are any, pls. point me to these lists so i can announce them on the MPC project homepage. Else i suggest creating

mpc-devel at freelists.org
mpc-general at freelists.org

for now. This should be enough, if we fell we need more we can do later.

3. Project Admins/Members :

Frank, Steve, can you please go to corecodec.org by time and register an account there, so i can add you to the project admins. If anybody else feels he wants to be added as dev or admin, pls. reply here ( Case ? ).

I wish the project all the luck it honestly deserves, and it makes me proud to have had the chance to become a small participant in it, if only by filling out the registration form and completing the trove categorization ( lol ).

Best regards

ChristianHJW

http://matroska.org



From kimmo at poispakkoruotsi.com  Mon Feb  3 17:53:38 2003
From: kimmo at poispakkoruotsi.com (Kimmo)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 18:53:38 +0200
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: MPC opensource project founded on corecodec.org
References: <000f01c2cba1$3b400620$a70aa8c0@mahlo.de>
Message-ID: <008a01c2cba4$cf693990$0100a8c0@kimmo>



----- Original Message -----
From: "ChristianHJW" <christian.hj.wiesner at web.de>
To: <matroska-general at freelists.org>
Cc: <johnv at hydrogenaudio.org>; <dibrom at hydrogenaudio.org>;
<case at mobiili.net>; <frank at matroska.org>; <betaboy at corecodec.com>;
<blacksun at matroska.org>
Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 6:27 PM
Subject: [matroska-general] MPC opensource project founded on corecodec.org


> Gentlemen,
>
> i have the pleasure to announce that today the MPC opensource project was
founded on http://corecodec.org .
>
> The preliminary URL is http://corecodec.org/projects/mpc until a nice
homepage was done for http://mpc.corecodec.org ( i'd love to copy Frank's or
case's homepage for the time being ;) ... no time and no talent to create a
new one ).
>
> Some parts of the MPC encoder sources were already sent to Steve 'robux4'
LHomme from Frank Klemm to be uploaded to the CVS tree once we have it
functional ( waiting for a patch from gforge author ). Please note also that
Steve and Frank are talking about creating this project together, means
Steve actively participating on MPC development.
>
> Important :
>
> Please do not publically announce this for the time being !!! The people
reading this list here can be considered a very small group ( this will
include the lurkers from Xiph via gmane.org ;) ), and it wont hurt us much
if the news would be spread out now, but i would like to ask you to avoid
any form of advertisement for the time being, if ever possible. This
information is sent to you to avoid any bad feelings, and to also give you
the chance to object to the foundation of the project if you feel this had
to be done, for whatever reason.

Will Matroska support MPC sound?


http://matroska.org



From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Mon Feb  3 18:22:09 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 18:22:09 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: MPC opensource project founded on corecodec.org
In-Reply-To: <008a01c2cba4$cf693990$0100a8c0@kimmo>
References: <000f01c2cba1$3b400620$a70aa8c0@mahlo.de> <008a01c2cba4$cf693990$0100a8c0@kimmo>
Message-ID: <1044292929.3e3ea541da308@imp.free.fr>


En r?ponse ? Kimmo <kimmo at poispakkoruotsi.com>:

> Will Matroska support MPC sound?

Definitely !

As soon as Frank think the code is ready to put it in another container (that
means SV8 is well advanced) that will be my top priority ! Provided that
libmatroska is well advanced too...

There are different plans for this. A lot of people will play matroska through
the DirectShow filter. So there has to be a way to decode MPC in that
environment. The options are :
- hard coded in the matroska DShow filter (not clean)
- make a standalone MPC decoder (cleanest option)
- have UCI working inside DirectShow, and make a UCI version of the MPC
encoder/decoder (best solution)

Considering the time and resource we have to work on this, we'll choose these
options in this ascending order.
http://matroska.org



From christian at matroska.org  Mon Feb  3 20:57:11 2003
From: christian at matroska.org (ChristianHJW)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 20:57:11 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: MPC opensource project founded on corecodec.org
References: <000f01c2cba1$3b400620$a70aa8c0@mahlo.de> <008a01c2cba4$cf693990$0100a8c0@kimmo>
Message-ID: <b1mhet$4ue$1@main.gmane.org>


"Kimmo" <kimmo at poispakkoruotsi.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:008a01c2cba4$cf693990$0100a8c0 at kimmo...
> Will Matroska support MPC sound?

You're not informed mate !! lol ...

Sure, matroska team loves MPC, and as long as there is no DShow filter for
MPC playback we plan to add the MPC decoder to our matroska parser (
hardcoded support ) to be able to support it ...

Christian



http://matroska.org



From kimmo at poispakkoruotsi.com  Mon Feb  3 21:24:38 2003
From: kimmo at poispakkoruotsi.com (Kimmo)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 22:24:38 +0200
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: MPC opensource project founded on corecodec.org
References: <000f01c2cba1$3b400620$a70aa8c0@mahlo.de> <008a01c2cba4$cf693990$0100a8c0@kimmo> <b1mhet$4ue$1@main.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <001501c2cbc2$4c78bbf0$0100a8c0@kimmo>



----- Original Message -----
From: "ChristianHJW" <christian at matroska.org>
To: <matroska-general at freelists.org>
Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 9:57 PM
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: MPC opensource project founded on
corecodec.org


>
> "Kimmo" <kimmo at poispakkoruotsi.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:008a01c2cba4$cf693990$0100a8c0 at kimmo...
> > Will Matroska support MPC sound?
>
> You're not informed mate !! lol ...
>
> Sure, matroska team loves MPC, and as long as there is no DShow filter for
> MPC playback we plan to add the MPC decoder to our matroska parser (
> hardcoded support ) to be able to support it ...

Cool, something I'd like would be up-to-date FAQ related to these questions
:)


http://matroska.org



From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Mon Feb  3 18:25:48 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 18:25:48 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: MPC opensource project founded on corecodec.org
In-Reply-To: <000f01c2cba1$3b400620$a70aa8c0@mahlo.de>
References: <000f01c2cba1$3b400620$a70aa8c0@mahlo.de>
Message-ID: <1044293148.3e3ea61c97605@imp.free.fr>


En r?ponse ? ChristianHJW <christian.hj.wiesner at web.de>:

> 1. Webboard. Normally it is in the scope of the corecodec community
> supplies to have a dedicated webforum for every opensource project
> hosted on Corecodec. However, as there already is a very well working
> MPC section on hydrogenaudio, and with respect to the very friendly and
> cooperative relations the Corecodec team has with the admins of this
> community, it may be worth considering to not follow the corecodec
> policy here and use the HA.org forums instead.

I think that HA must keep their MPC forums (of course !). The forum on CC will
probably be more technical, as it will be in direct connection with the
developpers (at least me).
 
> 2. Mailing Lists : I am not aware of any MLs for MPC. If there are any,
> pls. point me to these lists so i can announce them on the MPC project
> homepage. Else i suggest creating
> 
> mpc-devel at freelists.org
> mpc-general at freelists.org
> 
> for now. This should be enough, if we fell we need more we can do later.

I think there should be a corecodec-announce list somewhere
(corecodec-announce at corecodec.org ?). To inform people of events related to
CoreCodec and projects hosted there.

> 3. Project Admins/Members :
> 
> Frank, Steve, can you please go to corecodec.org by time and register an
> account there, so i can add you to the project admins. If anybody else
> feels he wants to be added as dev or admin, pls. reply here ( Case ?
> ).

I am registered robUx4 on corecodec.org.

bye
http://matroska.org



From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Wed Feb  5 15:36:54 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 15:36:54 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [matroska-general] Gnome Foundry
Message-ID: <1044455814.3e4121867da5c@imp.free.fr>


I don't know what's going on at SourceForge. We are now part of the Java Foundry
and the Gnome Foundry !
I guess they want to artificially fill their foundries...
http://matroska.org



From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Wed Feb  5 21:22:28 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 21:22:28 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Specs update
Message-ID: <3E417284.2030303@free.fr>


I have updated the specs according to the latest discussions on UCI-devel.

The reference system is now out of the Block. It is a (infinite) list of 
references in the BlockAdditional element. The references are relative 
timecodes to the frame they belong to. Lacing is not allowed when 
references are involved.

The frames should be stored in matroska in "coding order"; that means 
the references first and then the frames referencing them.

Due to the complexities allowed in matroska, there is also a number in 
each Track entry as follows :

MinCache 3 [6D][E7] - - 2 u-integer The minimum number of frames a 
player should be able to cache during playback.

So if a codec can use 10 reference to frames at the same time, it can do 
so by specifying 10 in this number. The default value (2) is the general 
case for I,P and B frames.

http://matroska.org



From kimmo at poispakkoruotsi.com  Tue Feb 11 05:46:27 2003
From: kimmo at poispakkoruotsi.com (Kimmo)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 06:46:27 +0200
Subject: [matroska-general] Making USF subtitles
Message-ID: <004201c2d188$8ce572c0$0100a8c0@kimmo>


Hi. I'd like to make now USF subtitles in advance, does this need any
special converting software or filters from SubRip to USF for example?
DirectVobSub isn't supporting these, am I right? Does USF support both text
and (lossless/lossy compressed) image subtitles in style of VobSub?


http://matroska.org



From chris at wiesneronline.net  Tue Feb 11 06:27:33 2003
From: chris at wiesneronline.net (ChristianHJW)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 06:27:33 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Making USF subtitles
References: <004201c2d188$8ce572c0$0100a8c0@kimmo>
Message-ID: <006101c2d18e$47a0d8c0$6500a8c0@mahlo.de>


Hi Kimmo,

i heard gabest is looking at adding USF support for VobSub, but havent heard
from him lately about it. Also our team member spyder started to look at
sub2usf using C, but told me he had stopped frustrated recently, and will do
it in Java now ( je is a java wizzard ;) ).

And no, currently USF has no lossless mode AFAIK ( .bmp , .png ) but i was
requesting this as an additional profile from the USF developers, for those
people that dont want to use OCR.

Regards

Christian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kimmo" <kimmo at poispakkoruotsi.com>
To: <matroska-general at freelists.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 5:46 AM
Subject: [matroska-general] Making USF subtitles
> Hi. I'd like to make now USF subtitles in advance, does this need any
> special converting software or filters from SubRip to USF for example?
> DirectVobSub isn't supporting these, am I right? Does USF support both
text
> and (lossless/lossy compressed) image subtitles in style of VobSub?


http://matroska.org



From kimmo at poispakkoruotsi.com  Tue Feb 11 14:59:05 2003
From: kimmo at poispakkoruotsi.com (Kimmo)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 15:59:05 +0200
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Making USF subtitles
References: <004201c2d188$8ce572c0$0100a8c0@kimmo> <006101c2d18e$47a0d8c0$6500a8c0@mahlo.de>
Message-ID: <008701c2d1d5$bdbd1540$0100a8c0@kimmo>



----- Original Message -----
From: "ChristianHJW" <chris at wiesneronline.net>
To: <matroska-general at freelists.org>
Cc: <kimmo at poispakkoruotsi.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 7:27 AM
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Making USF subtitles


>
> Hi Kimmo,
>
> i heard gabest is looking at adding USF support for VobSub, but havent
heard
> from him lately about it. Also our team member spyder started to look at
> sub2usf using C, but told me he had stopped frustrated recently, and will
do
> it in Java now ( je is a java wizzard ;) ).
>
> And no, currently USF has no lossless mode AFAIK ( .bmp , .png ) but i was
> requesting this as an additional profile from the USF developers, for
those
> people that dont want to use OCR.

Does it have JPG compression anyway?


http://matroska.org



From christian.hj.wiesner at web.de  Tue Feb 11 23:41:08 2003
From: christian.hj.wiesner at web.de (Christian HJ Wiesner)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 23:41:08 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: matroska : file check/repair tool
In-Reply-To: <E18iiNL-0003IY-00@sc8-sf-web3.sourceforge.net>
References: <E18iiNL-0003IY-00@sc8-sf-web3.sourceforge.net>
Message-ID: <3E497C04.7010807@web.de>


Hi aymen,

you are more than welcome in our team if you want to join us. We are 
currently in the process of finishing our basic I/O library called 
'libmatroska', being the basis of the container and written in C++ .

The tasks you are interested in doing is being coordinated by our team 
member John 'spyder' Cannon, living in the US. There has been no 
decision on what language to use, John can do java, C and C++ . If the 
time zone difference would be a problem for you than Steve 'robux4' 
LHomme could be the man to talk to, he is our chief developer and 
project admin.

What languages are you experienced with ? Is it possible for you to load 
the specs from our website http://matroska.org and have a first look at 
them ? The sources are on http://sf.net/projects/matroska , you can use 
annoncvs to get them until i could add you to our dev list.

Please visit us on our IRC channel irc.corecodec.com #matroska

Best regards

Christian

aymen jouini wrote:
> Hi, i'm a french student in computing, and have an 
> experience in programming, and would like to collaborate in 
> this project, my own interest is to enlarge my knowledge in 
> file system, and to participate actively in projects. So if you're 
> interested, and would like my help, please contact me. 
> Thanks            Bye 
> 

http://matroska.org



From christian.hj.wiesner at web.de  Wed Feb 12 00:18:34 2003
From: christian.hj.wiesner at web.de (Christian HJ Wiesner)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 00:18:34 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: matroska : Help with website
In-Reply-To: <E18ieAk-0005Jf-00@sc8-sf-web2.sourceforge.net>
References: <E18ieAk-0005Jf-00@sc8-sf-web2.sourceforge.net>
Message-ID: <3E4984CA.2090700@web.de>


Hi Sekxx,

we dont plan to use any php on our website, just plain and simple, but 
good looking HTML.

But what we were interested in was an automatic update of our specs site 
from the CVS tree of the specs ( doxygen format ). Is this somethig that 
you could be interested in ? Its not trivial though ;) ...

Christian

Sekxx wrote:
> I'm not a webdesigner but I'm pretty good at php/mysql, if 
> matroska.org is hosted on a server that allow php/mysql, here 
> is what I can do:
> --Templated website (So that a real webdesigner can do the 
> design)
> --Dynamique website(Everything that you want) exemple:
> ----Multilingual website, based on *.txt files so everybody can 
> translate it (and correct my 'stincky' english)
> ----Users(login...) support.
> ----Download/upload support.
> ...
> + If I do this (very little) part of the project, all the real guru 
> coder (what i'm not) can work on matroska itself instead of 
> spending time on webdeveloppement.
> 
> SeKxX. (faux.rhum at laposte.net)
> 

http://matroska.org



From suiryc at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 12 00:37:46 2003
From: suiryc at yahoo.com (Cyrius)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 15:37:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [matroska-general] Fwd: [Fwd: RE: matroska : logo / icon]
Message-ID: <20030211233746.43600.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: matroska : logo / icon
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 12:46:56 -0800
From: Nupur Sarpal <saunup at users.sourceforge.net>
To: christianhjw at users.sourceforge.net

i would like to contribute.

   My skills are

   illustrator
   photoshop
   dreamweaver
   flash
   html

   To see couple of examples of my work,following are
links
   to my web site and other sites,i made


http://www.geocities.com/nupursarpal/indexa/indexa.htm





-  web sites with logos

   http://mmssuite.sourceforge.net/

   http://recycle-logs.sourceforge.net/

  http://pnet6.sourceforge.net/

  http://jmfogg.sourceforge.net/

   http://nevolutio.sourceforge.net/

   http://kchat.sourceforge.net/

   http://agranger.sourceforge.net

   http://kcast.sourceforge.net/
   http://pounder.sourceforge.net/

   http://open2business.sourceforge.net/

   http://projectloyle.sourceforge.net/index.htm

   http://bomberlan.sourceforge.net/

   http://jskin.sourceforge.net/#

   http://www.jeffsworld.net/crazyircd/index.php

    http://gnomemusicpad.sourceforge.net/

- logos or banners or icons

    http://gunner.sourceforge.net/

   http://seqrat.sourceforge.net/logos.php

   http://flakarchiver.sourceforge.net/index.html

   http://simuconfig.sourceforge.net/old/

   http://aero.sourceforge.net/

   http://sg-packetfilter.sungazer.de/propaganda.html

   http://srps.sourceforge.net/forum/index.php
   http://ctools.sourceforge.net/

   www.alqua.com

   http://nxwcms.sourceforge.net/

   http://linuxtipps.sourceforge.net/index.php

   https://sourceforge.net/projects/demo-effects/




   My sf id is saunup.

   thanks

    nupur


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com
http://matroska.org



From suiryc at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 12 00:38:39 2003
From: suiryc at yahoo.com (Cyrius)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 15:38:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [matroska-general] Fwd: [Fwd: RE: matroska : Help with website]
Message-ID: <20030211233839.24388.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com>


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: matroska : Help with website
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 09:26:18 -0800
From: Sekxx <sekxx at users.sourceforge.net>
To: christianhjw at users.sourceforge.net
CC: <sekxx at users.sourceforge.net>


I'm not a webdesigner but I'm pretty good at
php/mysql, if
matroska.org is hosted on a server that allow
php/mysql, here
is what I can do:
--Templated website (So that a real webdesigner can do
the
design)
--Dynamique website(Everything that you want) exemple:
----Multilingual website, based on *.txt files so
everybody can
translate it (and correct my 'stincky' english)
----Users(login...) support.
----Download/upload support.
...
+ If I do this (very little) part of the project, all
the real guru
coder (what i'm not) can work on matroska itself
instead of
spending time on webdeveloppement.

SeKxX. (faux.rhum at laposte.net)


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com
http://matroska.org



From thanatos666 at gmx.net  Wed Feb 12 11:30:08 2003
From: thanatos666 at gmx.net (thana)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 11:30:08 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] file check/repair tool
Message-ID: <b2d7kc$9kb$1@main.gmane.org>

hi all

i'm a 23 year old student for media technologies from austria and i would
very much like to contribute to your project. i'm following the development
of mcf/matroska from it's beginning and i'm reading the mailing-list for
some time now, and also the specs. i've some experience in programming
(c/c++/java), and although i'm not up to the task of writing dshow-fiters,
container-libraries or other very advanced stuff, i'm confident i could
manage the job writing this file/check repair-tool, preferrably in java so
that it's cross-plattform compatible out of the box (or hopefully so ;)).
starting from the end of february i have plenty of time to work on that
tool, so that development could be finished shortly.

kind regards,
thana



http://matroska.org



From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Wed Feb 12 12:54:11 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 12:54:11 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: file check/repair tool
In-Reply-To: <b2d7kc$9kb$1@main.gmane.org>
References: <b2d7kc$9kb$1@main.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1045050851.3e4a35e3a121b@imp.free.fr>


En r?ponse ? thana <thanatos666 at gmx.net>:

> hi all
> 
> i'm a 23 year old student for media technologies from austria and i
> would
> very much like to contribute to your project. i'm following the
> development
> of mcf/matroska from it's beginning and i'm reading the mailing-list
> for
> some time now, and also the specs. i've some experience in programming
> (c/c++/java), and although i'm not up to the task of writing
> dshow-fiters,
> container-libraries or other very advanced stuff, i'm confident i
> could
> manage the job writing this file/check repair-tool, preferrably in java
> so
> that it's cross-plattform compatible out of the box (or hopefully so
> ;)).
> starting from the end of february i have plenty of time to work on
> that
> tool, so that development could be finished shortly.

Great !
Thanks for the offer thanatos666 (scary name ;)

I have nothing against java, but the problem is that most people won't like to
need a JVM to run an application (how many here have a JVM installed on their
machine ?). But the main problem I see (after most current OS ship with a JVM),
is that there is no libmatroska code existing for java for the moment. So you
won't be able to build your tool on existing classes.

My opinion on this tool is that it could be command line application, that could
come with a GUI or in a library form (the core of the tool) to be used by other
apps (java GUI, VB GUI, TCMP plugin, etc). And so far there is only C++ code
existing to parse matroska file. It's up to you to decide which way you want to
go :)
http://matroska.org



From thanatos666 at gmx.net  Wed Feb 12 13:28:37 2003
From: thanatos666 at gmx.net (thana)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 13:28:37 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: file check/repair tool
References: <b2d7kc$9kb$1@main.gmane.org> <1045050851.3e4a35e3a121b@imp.free.fr>
Message-ID: <b2deig$4a9$1@main.gmane.org>

> Great !
> Thanks for the offer thanatos666 (scary name ;)

yeah, a scary name for a scary person ;)
no, honestly, please call me short 'thana'

>
> I have nothing against java, but the problem is that most people won't
like to
> need a JVM to run an application (how many here have a JVM installed on
their
> machine ?). But the main problem I see (after most current OS ship with a
JVM),
> is that there is no libmatroska code existing for java for the moment. So
you
> won't be able to build your tool on existing classes.

yes i know that's a problem (but i think at least MacOSX ships with
integrated java-support).
from what i've read here on the mailinglist i thought that at least a
working ebml-parser in java is existing. so wouldn't it be possible to build
the tool with that parser, as it only would need to read/write the ecc/edc
elements? ok, for block reordering/index rebuilding this might not work..
maybe i could also work on the matroska parser in jmf, i don't kow how
difficult it is, as i don't have experience with the jmf so far..
but maybe the ebml-parser could serve as a good starting point..

> My opinion on this tool is that it could be command line application, that
could
> come with a GUI or in a library form (the core of the tool) to be used by
other
> apps (java GUI, VB GUI, TCMP plugin, etc). And so far there is only C++
code
> existing to parse matroska file. It's up to you to decide which way you
want to
> go :)

as i think of it, c++ might be a better alternative.. the only concern i
have here is cross-platform compatibility, as i know this requirement is
listed high on your list.. i don't have much experience with linux (apart
from installing it 2-3 times in school), especially not programming.. so
somebody would have to help me out in this regard, once its working on
windows..

a command line tool would also be my first try on it.. once its working
resonably, i could add a nice gui, as i always wanted to gain more
experience in that area..

thana



http://matroska.org



From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Wed Feb 12 14:50:39 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 14:50:39 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: file check/repair tool
In-Reply-To: <b2deig$4a9$1@main.gmane.org>
References: <b2d7kc$9kb$1@main.gmane.org> <1045050851.3e4a35e3a121b@imp.free.fr> <b2deig$4a9$1@main.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1045057839.3e4a512f23741@imp.free.fr>


En r?ponse ? thana <thanatos666 at gmx.net>:

> yeah, a scary name for a scary person ;)
> no, honestly, please call me short 'thana'

No problem, thana :)

> yes i know that's a problem (but i think at least MacOSX ships with
> integrated java-support).

Yes, MacOSX ships with the Sun JVM (although the 1.4 version is not finished and
make some tools of the OS not work for me). 

> from what i've read here on the mailinglist i thought that at least a
> working ebml-parser in java is existing. so wouldn't it be possible to

Yes, only spyder probably made/used it. So you might contact him for the state
of the code.

> build
> the tool with that parser, as it only would need to read/write the
> ecc/edc
> elements? ok, for block reordering/index rebuilding this might not
> work..
> maybe i could also work on the matroska parser in jmf, i don't kow how
> difficult it is, as i don't have experience with the jmf so far..
> but maybe the ebml-parser could serve as a good starting point..

Spyder could probably help you with JMF, at least to share what he learned from JMF.

> as i think of it, c++ might be a better alternative.. the only concern
> i
> have here is cross-platform compatibility, as i know this requirement
> is
> listed high on your list.. i don't have much experience with linux

Yes. C++ is compatible with other apps as long as you use the same compiler :)
You can compile your code everywhere (the libmatroska shouldn't have any
portability issue). But you can't mix the library with other compilers (unless
you use large library like DCOM or CORBA).

In linux the problem doesn't really exist, because the compiler is somehow part
of the OS, and almost all the time GCC (better to use 3.x for libmatroska). The
Intel compiler on Linux should be fully compatible with GCC.
http://matroska.org



From suiryc at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 12 15:33:19 2003
From: suiryc at yahoo.com (Cyrius)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 06:33:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: file check/repair tool
In-Reply-To: <1045057839.3e4a512f23741@imp.free.fr>
Message-ID: <20030212143319.54831.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com>


> > as i think of it, c++ might be a better
> alternative.. the only concern
> > i
> > have here is cross-platform compatibility, as i
> know this requirement
> > is
> > listed high on your list.. i don't have much
> experience with linux
> 
> Yes. C++ is compatible with other apps as long as
> you use the same compiler :)
> You can compile your code everywhere (the
> libmatroska shouldn't have any
> portability issue). But you can't mix the library
> with other compilers (unless
> you use large library like DCOM or CORBA).

You can also use a 'C API' ;) (i.e. only export C
functions in the library). This is the main reason 

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com
http://matroska.org



From suiryc at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 12 15:36:52 2003
From: suiryc at yahoo.com (Cyrius)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 06:36:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: file check/repair tool
In-Reply-To: <1045057839.3e4a512f23741@imp.free.fr>
Message-ID: <20030212143652.51876.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com>


> > as i think of it, c++ might be a better
> alternative.. the only concern
> > i
> > have here is cross-platform compatibility, as i
> know this requirement
> > is
> > listed high on your list.. i don't have much
> experience with linux
> 
> Yes. C++ is compatible with other apps as long as
> you use the same compiler :)
> You can compile your code everywhere (the
> libmatroska shouldn't have any
> portability issue). But you can't mix the library
> with other compilers (unless
> you use large library like DCOM or CORBA).

As I said ;) (damn I don't like when the mail is sent
before I finish it :p), exporting only C functions
should make the library works with apps built with any
compiler. That's why a lot of library are made in C.
(correct me if I am wrong)

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com
http://matroska.org



From christian at matroska.org  Wed Feb 12 13:40:20 2003
From: christian at matroska.org (Christian HJ Wiesner)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 13:40:20 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: file check/repair tool
References: <b2d7kc$9kb$1@main.gmane.org> <1045050851.3e4a35e3a121b@imp.free.fr>
Message-ID: <000901c2d293$e9fd1ce0$a70aa8c0@mahlo.de>



----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Lhomme" <steve.lhomme at free.fr>
To: <matroska-general at freelists.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 12:54 PM
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: file check/repair tool
> I have nothing against java, but the problem is that most people won't
like to
> need a JVM to run an application (how many here have a JVM installed on
their
> machine ?). But the main problem I see (after most current OS ship with a
JVM),
> is that there is no libmatroska code existing for java for the moment. So
you
> won't be able to build your tool on existing classes.

Not true ! Spyder has a very good basis of EBML code existing for Java
already IIRC, and i will definitely want to urge him to finihs that once he
has completed the technical doc he is working on right now. A good java
support for matroska is something i liked to see a lot for these very
reasons :

- spyder's java based MCF implementation was a perfect way to find holes in
the docs or in libmcf, when we x-checked the files created with one of the
other. If we had the same for matroska we could use that to prove
libmatroska is free of errors, and the docs are clear in any case.
- many webbased tools today are basing on java, and i can see a use for
matroska for webbased apps also
- a tool for general use, such as the file repair tool we need, could be
used on almost any platform if its based on Java
- EBML needs a working java implementation if it wanted to take off for
purposes outside of matroska .... i guess this was our aim when founding it
as a separate project on sourceforge ?

> My opinion on this tool is that it could be command line application, that
could
> come with a GUI or in a library form (the core of the tool) to be used by
other
> apps (java GUI, VB GUI, TCMP plugin, etc). And so far there is only C++
code
> existing to parse matroska file. It's up to you to decide which way you
want to
> go :)

I dont agree ;-) ! It should be our decision as the team leaders how the
tools should be developed. Thana was offering us to join the team as an
active member, so this is much different to somebody wokring on his own,
outside the team, doing his own things.

I'd like to hear the opinion of the other team members here also. spyder ?
myFUN ? Cyrius ? Pamel ? Jory ? The new team members ? Any comments ?

Best regards

Christian

http://matroska.org



From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Wed Feb 12 14:55:42 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 14:55:42 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: file check/repair tool
In-Reply-To: <000901c2d293$e9fd1ce0$a70aa8c0@mahlo.de>
References: <b2d7kc$9kb$1@main.gmane.org> <1045050851.3e4a35e3a121b@imp.free.fr> <000901c2d293$e9fd1ce0$a70aa8c0@mahlo.de>
Message-ID: <1045058142.3e4a525e9091d@imp.free.fr>


En r?ponse ? Christian HJ Wiesner <christian at matroska.org>:

> - spyder's java based MCF implementation was a perfect way to find holes
> in
> the docs or in libmcf, when we x-checked the files created with one of
> the
> other. If we had the same for matroska we could use that to prove
> libmatroska is free of errors, and the docs are clear in any case.

YES !

> - many webbased tools today are basing on java, and i can see a use
> for
> matroska for webbased apps also

Not sure anybody will use that.

> - a tool for general use, such as the file repair tool we need, could
> be used on almost any platform if its based on Java

Yes.

> - EBML needs a working java implementation if it wanted to take off
> for
> purposes outside of matroska .... i guess this was our aim when founding
> it as a separate project on sourceforge ?

Well in my mind it was mostly to let other people know this binary system exists
and can be used. Otherwise it would get lost in matroska and wouldn't have the
opportunity to evolve on its own.

> > existing to parse matroska file. It's up to you to decide which way
> you
> want to
> > go :)
> 
> I dont agree ;-) ! It should be our decision as the team leaders how
> the
> tools should be developed. Thana was offering us to join the team as
> an
> active member, so this is much different to somebody wokring on his
> own, outside the team, doing his own things.

I hear what you say, but it's thana's decision to decide which stuff he wants to
work on, knowing there are many possibilities. So far we haven't listed these
works and put some priorities.
After all, he's coming to acquire some knowledge, as we all do, so let him chose
the ones he wants :) As you said, we're here because it's fun. If it's not fun
anymore (orders) then it's not worth it.
http://matroska.org



From suiryc at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 12 15:45:31 2003
From: suiryc at yahoo.com (Cyrius)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 06:45:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: file check/repair tool
In-Reply-To: <1045058142.3e4a525e9091d@imp.free.fr>
Message-ID: <20030212144531.57796.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com>


> > > existing to parse matroska file. It's up to you
> to decide which way
> > you
> > want to
> > > go :)
> > 
> > I dont agree ;-) ! It should be our decision as
> the team leaders how
> > the
> > tools should be developed. Thana was offering us
> to join the team as
> > an
> > active member, so this is much different to
> somebody wokring on his
> > own, outside the team, doing his own things.
> 
> I hear what you say, but it's thana's decision to
> decide which stuff he wants to
> work on, knowing there are many possibilities. So
> far we haven't listed these
> works and put some priorities.
> After all, he's coming to acquire some knowledge, as
> we all do, so let him chose
> the ones he wants :) As you said, we're here because
> it's fun. If it's not fun
> anymore (orders) then it's not worth it.

We have been asked to give our opinion and here I
agree with Steve. The best we can do is list what we
had in mind (i.e. this could be a real program doing
the work, or a library that could be used by other
programs; well my opinion is a little biased here : it
could be in C/C++ ;) ...).
But it's up to thana to choose what he prefers to do
(well unless you pay him to do the work :p).

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com
http://matroska.org



From thanatos666 at gmx.net  Wed Feb 12 16:32:57 2003
From: thanatos666 at gmx.net (thana)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 16:32:57 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: file check/repair tool
References: <1045058142.3e4a525e9091d@imp.free.fr> <20030212144531.57796.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b2dpc3$mig$1@main.gmane.org>

well, thanks for the input guys..

i think the best way to decide which language i will choose, is to actually
look at the code from both existing implementations.. after that i'll have a
better understanding of the required skills for both tasks, and see which
one fits me best :)

the code from libmatroska can be retrieved by cvs, right? i'll create a sf
account later on today and let you now my nick so that you can add me to the
developer list.. what ide and compiler do you recommend for c++? i'm quite
familiar with visual studio 6..

how can i get the code for the java-ebml implementation? spyder, can you
please mail it to me? also, which ide do you prefer for java? i've worked
with jbuilder, but i think it's most useful for web-apps and not standalone
applications..

also, please don't expect too much from me for the next 2 weeks, as i'm
still working 9h/day at the moment, and i'm also changing my residence very
soon..

thana




http://matroska.org



From spyder482 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 15 00:50:51 2003
From: spyder482 at yahoo.com (John Cannon)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 17:50:51 -0600
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: file check/repair tool
References: <1045058142.3e4a525e9091d@imp.free.fr> <20030212144531.57796.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> <b2dpc3$mig$1@main.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <b2jv7a$n8l$1@main.gmane.org>

I am working tonight on finishing up the missing and buggy portions of  the
EBML code.  I prefer NetBeans for a Java IDE.  I have some experience with
JMF that you may find useful.  It's not really hard.  Much simpler than
DirectShow for example.  Anyway, I will contact you with the code later once
I have finished it up a little.  You should join IRC and talk to me.  Maybe
we could work on the implementation together.

Spyder



http://matroska.org



From Paul at msn.com  Wed Feb 12 20:09:32 2003
From: Paul at msn.com (Pamel)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 13:09:32 -0600
Subject: [matroska-general] Matroska File Layout
Message-ID: <b2e60r$jh8$1@main.gmane.org>

The XML represendation of a Matroska has been updated to the new specs.  The
main changes are the new Block structure and new aspect ratio settings.

For lack of a better spot, the file has been uploaded to:

http://www.matroska.org/Matroska9.XML

Please look over it to become familiar with the layout of a Matroska file
and comment on any concerns you may have.


Pamel



http://matroska.org



From christian at matroska.org  Wed Feb 12 23:44:31 2003
From: christian at matroska.org (Christian HJ Wiesner)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 23:44:31 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Nullsoft Video
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0302112348000.14303-100000@x-wing.tmmm.home>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0302112348000.14303-100000@x-wing.tmmm.home>
Message-ID: <3E4ACE4F.7030209@matroska.org>




Mike Melanson wrote:
> Hi,
> 	Nullsoft, the company behind Winamp, has developed a new
> multimedia container format called NSV:
>   http://www.nullsoft.com/nsv/
>  There is some conjecture that the
> format might be scrambled a little, as Nullsoft is owned by AOL. The
> latter may have an interest in protecting digitally-distributed content.

Yes, i have been watching this container for quite some time, a in a 
certain way they are trying to do something similar as Xiph people plan 
to do with Theora, of course with a different audio codec.

But with the bad docs available its clear to me that they are not 
interested in having playback support on other players than their stupid 
winamp 3 ....

Christian
http://matroska.org

http://matroska.org



From christian at matroska.org  Thu Feb 13 12:27:50 2003
From: christian at matroska.org (Christian HJ Wiesner)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 12:27:50 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] To the new Team members of Matroska
Message-ID: <005b01c2d354$fd817ab0$a70aa8c0@mahlo.de>

Hi all,

all of you that are copied on this email have been adressing us recently about joining our team. Our team members are currently

Steve 'robux4' LHomme ; chief developer and project admin
John 'spyder' Cannon ; Java wizzard and main contributor
Jean 'Cyrius' Colon ; VirtualdubMod and matroskadub developer
Jan 'myFUN/kromyx' Schlenker ; matroska DShow parser developer
Frank Klemm ; MPC ( musepack ) developer, a high quality audio codec
Paul 'Pamel' Bryson ; XML consultant, PR assistant
Jory 'jcsston' ; VB developer, GUI creator
Moritz 'mosu' Bunkus ; developer of the OGM merge tools, mplayer developer
Christian 'HJ' Wiesner ; General helper, Content writer, PR , project admin

Contributors are ( some more, some less :) ):

Ludovic 'Blacksun' Vialle ; Developer of 'The Core Media Player' , DirectShow consultant
Dan 'Betaboy' Marlin ; Corecodec Community Leader ( soon our host )
'raghav' Ragavendran ; MPC2matroska.exe
Radek 'sysKin' ; XviD developer
Milan Cutka ; developer of ffdshow DShow filter
Ronald 'BBB' Bultje ; Gstreamer developer


Please allow me to welcome you all in the name of the matroska team members and the administrators. We are a very small team and the last 2 years were not easy for us, as we were using another approach to making matroska than its normally happening in the opensource world. Instead of just releasing some basic code and then to evaluate from there we wanted to

- get as many input as possible from all the wise people in multimedia out there
- make a proper spec and document it properly in a doxygen Format
- start coding the library and the tools

As you may imagine its hard to do it that way, as people are normally not at all interested in something they cant get their hands on yet. Most projects in multimedia opensource development are driven by making crazy patches quickly, so that new functionalities are added and can be used instantaneously. Of course, doing it that way is a very risky thing as you may find yourself in a situation soon where you have to make 'hacks' to achieve certain things. We wanted to avoid this by all means, so we took the long, winding road of trying to motivate people to look at what we have, listen to their comments and suggestions and improve from there.

The main input on the specs as you find them today have been done from those people :

Lasse 'Tronic' Karkainen ; Founder of TMF that evolved into MCF, our 'sister' project ( http://mcf.sf.net ) ; matroska was born in a project fork from MCF as lasse couldnt not identify with the EBML specs Steve did
Ingo Ralf Blum ; Developer of the MediaXW framework, DirectShow wizzard
Frank Klemm ; see above
Alex 'Foogod' Stewart ; project admin of UCI, the Universal Codec Interface, one of the backbones of matroska and MCF ( http://uci.sf.net )
Alban 'albeu' Bedel ; mplayer developer
( I hope i didnt miss anybody :)  )


Thare a few

http://matroska.org



From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Thu Feb 13 13:38:25 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 13:38:25 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: To the new Team members of Matroska
In-Reply-To: <005b01c2d354$fd817ab0$a70aa8c0@mahlo.de>
References: <005b01c2d354$fd817ab0$a70aa8c0@mahlo.de>
Message-ID: <1045139905.3e4b91c1105ef@imp.free.fr>


En r?ponse ? Christian HJ Wiesner <christian at matroska.org>:

> - make a proper spec and document it properly in a doxygen Format

Christian,

Doxygen is made to document source code and extract meaningful documentation
from that. The specs are not based on Doxygen but as just plain (X)HTML pages.
The source code documentation will be extracted from our source later.
http://matroska.org



From christian at matroska.org  Thu Feb 13 14:00:40 2003
From: christian at matroska.org (Christian HJ Wiesner)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:00:40 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: To the new Team members of Matroska
Message-ID: <007101c2d35f$ee04a1b0$a70aa8c0@mahlo.de>

Crappy OE  ( from work ;) ) was sending the message half ready ... sorry

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Christian HJ Wiesner 
  To: thana ; Sekxx, our: "Black-Shining-Prince" ; David ; aymen jouini ; Nupur Sarpal ; Abhilash K ; Hamann, Jens ; santiago at matroska.org ; animesh at matroska.org ; howtam at matroska.org 
  Cc: matroska-general at freelists.org 
  Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 12:27 PM
  Subject: To the new Team members of Matroska


  Hi all,

  all of you that are copied on this email have been adressing us recently about joining our team. Our team members are currently

  Steve 'robux4' LHomme ; chief developer and project admin
  John 'spyder' Cannon ; Java wizzard and main contributor
  Jean 'Cyrius' Colon ; VirtualdubMod and matroskadub developer
  Jan 'myFUN/kromyx' Schlenker ; matroska DShow parser developer
  Frank Klemm ; MPC ( musepack ) developer, a high quality audio codec
  Paul 'Pamel' Bryson ; XML consultant, PR assistant
  Jory 'jcsston' ; VB developer, GUI creator
  Moritz 'mosu' Bunkus ; developer of the OGM merge tools, mplayer developer
  Christian 'HJ' Wiesner ; General helper, Content writer, PR , project admin

  Contributors are ( some more, some less :) ):

  Ludovic 'Blacksun' Vialle ; Developer of 'The Core Media Player' , DirectShow consultant
  Dan 'Betaboy' Marlin ; Corecodec Community Leader ( soon our host )
  Tobias 'Belgabor' Minich ; VirtualdubMod project admin
  'raghav' Ragavendran ; MPC2matroska.exe
  Radek 'sysKin' ; XviD developer
  Milan Cutka ; developer of ffdshow DShow filter
  Ronald 'BBB' Bultje ; Gstreamer developer


  Please allow me to welcome you all in the name of the matroska team members and the administrators. We are a very small team and the last 2 years were not easy for us, as we were using another approach to making matroska than its normally happening in the opensource world. Instead of just releasing some basic code and then to evaluate from there we wanted to

  - get as many input as possible from all the wise people in multimedia out there
  - make a proper spec and document it properly in a doxygen Format
  - start coding the library and the tools

  As you may imagine its hard to do it that way, as people are normally not at all interested in something they cant get their hands on yet. Most projects in multimedia opensource development are driven by making crazy patches quickly, so that new functionalities are added and can be used instantaneously. Of course, doing it that way is a very risky thing as you may find yourself in a situation soon where you have to make 'hacks' to achieve certain things. We wanted to avoid this by all means, so we took the long, winding road of trying to motivate people to look at what we have, listen to their comments and suggestions and improve from there.

  The main input on the specs as you find them today have been done from those people :

  Lasse 'Tronic' Karkainen ; Founder of TMF that evolved into MCF, our 'sister' project ( http://mcf.sf.net ) ; matroska was born in a project fork from MCF as lasse couldnt not identify with the EBML specs Steve did
  Ingo Ralf Blum ; Developer of the MediaXW framework, DirectShow wizzard
  Frank Klemm ; see above
  Alex 'Foogod' Stewart ; project admin of UCI, the Universal Codec Interface, one of the backbones of matroska and MCF ( http://uci.sf.net )
  Alban 'albeu' Bedel ; mplayer developer
  ( I hope i didnt miss anybody :)  )


  Thare a few

There are a number of things on our to-do list now :

1. Move the complete project from sourceforge.net to the new corecodec.org opensource platform, being dedicated for audio and video compression. Other projects to be hosted there ( to start with ) will be :
- MPC ( musepack ) audio codec
- USF : Universal Subtitle Format
- WARP : a new, wavelet based video codec, offering a lossless mode also
- COREYUV : a lossless video codec project based on HuffYuv, but with a few goodies added
and hopefully many many more

This moving is the main reason why i dont start to create specific jobs on sourceforge.net as of now, as i would have to redo it all for the new project on corecodec.

2. Overwork our webpage :

John 'spyder' Cannon is currently writing up a document that is aiming to explain a few things about matroska, for the technically interested user. In addition to that we want to add the follwoing pages :

- matroska Team ( contact details )
- supported codecs ( plans, actual status, ongoing development )
- software supporting matroska ( links, status, ongoing development )
- Codec ID list ( specs addition ? )
- technical explanation of UCI, EBML, USF, etc.
- webdesign of homepage
- link to forums and description of Corecodec and its mission
etc.


3. Create a logo :

As i was posting already on the job proposal on sourceforge, our current idea is to bind the Russian dolls into the logo, as they ( in one way or another ) were the name givers. It will be necessary to meet on our IRC channel ( irc.corecodec.com #matroska ) soon to discuss what we might wonna do here. All the guys interested should give me a shout, so we can find a date when to mee there


4. Start to develop tools :

- matroskadub ( VirtualdubMod ), Windows : assigned to Cyrius and Belgabor, Cyrius told me he is pretty close to be able to mux first video and audio streams into our container, so we could upload some test files

- matroska DShow parser, Windows : myFUN is already working on it, he said he plans to completely rewrite it 8) !!

- file repair tool ( Windows, Linux, MacOS ) : thana wanted to look at this in abut 2 weeks, spyder will be the project coordinator. The tool should be able to repair and optimize matroska files, as well as prepare it for mode2 form2 burning ( adding additional EDC/ECC elements )

- port EBML and matroska code to C : animesh has already loaded the sources, santiago wanted to help him ; lets see what they come up with

- Muxing tool for Linux : Moritz Bunkus will look at that once the lib has either a C API or is ported to C

- mplayer playback patch : Moritz also :) !

- gstreamer plugin, Linux : I will contact Ronald BBB Bultje again on that

- HTTP/RTP streaming server : How Tam is da man ;) ; robux4 to assist

( useful links :  http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.video.mcf.devel/550 ; http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.video.mcf.devel/556 ; http://www.rtsp.org/ ; http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.video.mcf.devel/578 ; http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.video.mcf.devel/617 ; http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.video.mcf.devel/630 ; 


- porting EBML and matroska to Java : noone assigned yet ; spyder has some existing code, but its not tested nor uploaded

- JMF parser : spyder would be the man to do it for sure, as he had the most JMF experience, maybe assisted by thana one day ?

All these jobs will be created on the GForge interface once we have moved to the Corecodec server, but for now please use the list as created here.


5. Alpha Testing phase on http://corecodec.com and http://virtualdub.everwicked.com : my job ;)


6. Release Beta tools : cant wait until we will finally be there, and it could happen pretty soon, at least for Windows ...



Some important remarks :

- team email adresses : Animesh, Santiago and How Tam have already got new team email adresses with the  @matroska.org TLD. All the others, pls. drop me a short email if you want this also and what email adress you want me to use for forwarding ( we dont have a pop3 for that, but use zonedit email forwarding ). In case you want to send email with that adress and dont have a relay to use, tell me.

- IRC channel : please visit our IRC channel on irc.corecodec.com , during the European evening/night hours if possible. We discuss a lot of important stuff there, so you shouldnt miss it to be there from time to time

- Mailing lists : Its important that you follow the 3 mailing lists we have if you wnat to be up-to-date : These are NOT on sourceforge, but on http://freelists.org , subscribe to matroska-devel <at >freelists.org ; matroska-general <at> freelists.org ; matroska-cvs <at> freelists.org ; Alternatively you may use the NNTP interface on gmane.org ( news://news.gmane.org ) and follow the lists there , gmane.comp.multimedia.matroska.xxx 


Again, a warm and friendly welcome from the matroska team to all of you !! We hope you still want to help us and become team members, ow as you know a bit more about our plans and goals, as well about the way we are working.

Looking forward to meet you soon on IRC

Best regards

ChristianHJW



http://matroska.org



From moritz at bunkus.org  Thu Feb 13 15:15:07 2003
From: moritz at bunkus.org (Moritz Bunkus)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 15:15:07 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: To the new Team members of Matroska
In-Reply-To: <007101c2d35f$ee04a1b0$a70aa8c0@mahlo.de>
References: <007101c2d35f$ee04a1b0$a70aa8c0@mahlo.de>
Message-ID: <20030213141507.GO26772@bunkus.org>


Hi.

> - Muxing tool for Linux : Moritz Bunkus will look at that once the
> - lib has either a C API or is ported to C

Well, I'll write the 'matroskatools' or whatever I'll call them in C++
as well. So a C API is not necessarily required for me to start working
on it. But as long as mplayer cannot play back those files I have to
use a Windows machine for that ;)

> - mplayer playback patch : Moritz also :) !

Here's where I need that C API. On the other hand I might just write a
C++ demultiplexer and use it only privately so that I can avoid having
to run two computers at the same time (see above).

In short: I'll probably start working on the sources this weekend.

-- 
 ==> Ciao, Mosu (Moritz Bunkus)
http://matroska.org



From chris at wiesneronline.net  Thu Feb 13 15:39:32 2003
From: chris at wiesneronline.net (ChristianHJW)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 15:39:32 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: To the new Team members of Matroska
References: <007101c2d35f$ee04a1b0$a70aa8c0@mahlo.de> <20030213141507.GO26772@bunkus.org>
Message-ID: <008901c2d36d$bb01ab60$a70aa8c0@mahlo.de>



----- Original Message -----
From: "Moritz Bunkus" <moritz at bunkus.org>
To: <matroska-general at freelists.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 3:15 PM
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: To the new Team members of Matroska
> In short: I'll probably start working on the sources this weekend.
>  ==> Ciao, Mosu (Moritz Bunkus)

:-) .. Great ! Dont forget to come to IRC ( irc.corecodec.com #matroska )
then, as there might be a couple of questions from you when looking at the
code, and Cyrius and robux4 will be the ones to answer best i guess ...

Christian

http://matroska.org



From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Fri Feb 14 09:59:59 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 09:59:59 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [matroska-general] Dual License
Message-ID: <1045213199.3e4cb00f3b339@imp.free.fr>


Here is an interview of the CEO of Trolltech who make Qt which is QPL/GPL dual
licensed.

http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/interviews/4673/1/

This is the same license system that we chose.

As I explained to Christian, the QPL allows the use of the library with any
other open source license except GPL ones. The GPL addition makes this possible.
But the GPL doesn't allow the use of the library with QPL softwares for example
(that's where people will use the QPL one).

As said in the source files, if anybody can't comply with any of those license,
they can ask us for another one :)
http://matroska.org



From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Fri Feb 14 14:46:43 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 14:46:43 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [matroska-general] Blu-Ray disc Logo use
Message-ID: <1045230403.3e4cf3433dc02@imp.free.fr>


Here is the license fee for use of the logo and the format Blu-Ray :

http://www.blu-raydisc.info/Licenseinfo/flla.htm

It is related to matroska because we want to have a similar system for matroska
parsers/players. The specs will always be available for free, but to use the
logo (RathO has started a very promising work on that) that will say the product
is compliant with one of the profiles of the specs, they will have to pass some
tests and ask us about it.

The policy would be that any free/open implementation should get the logo for
free (provided it passes the tests) and commercial/closed implementations should
pay a fee (amount undefined). The money will be used to cover our costs : legal
protection, hosting, developping some special versions, expanding the project
scope, etc.
http://matroska.org



From christian at matroska.org  Sun Feb 16 23:00:25 2003
From: christian at matroska.org (ChristianHJW)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 23:00:25 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Deja Vu : the mplayer people reinventing the wheel :-(
Message-ID: <b2p1hd$g6g$1@main.gmane.org>


About the problem of defining a way to store huge video frames and small
bitrate audio in one and the same container :

http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.video.mplayer.devel/7628

http://news.gmane.org/thread.php?group=gmane.comp.video.mplayer.devel&first=
51&last=100

About the main difference between MCF/matroska and their format ( they call
it MPCF still ) :

http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.video.mplayer.devel/7639
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.video.mplayer.devel/7641
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.video.mplayer.devel/7647
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.video.mplayer.devel/7649
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.video.mplayer.devel/7653  !!!!
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.video.mplayer.devel/7661
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.video.mplayer.devel/7673
http://news.gmane.org/thread.php?group=gmane.comp.video.mplayer.devel

I have still not understood why Michael Niedermeier is wasting his genius on
creating another container format. He should improve ffmpeg to make it kick
DivX5's ass, instead he is reinventing the wheel we all have been thinking
about for 2 years now. In the end they will reach a few limitations of their
( fast made ) structure pretty soon. Its a bit similar to reading through
the old MCF mailing lists, but admittedly those guys have a much better
background at least with MPEG container than we had ....

Christian
http://matroska.org





http://matroska.org



From kimmo at poispakkoruotsi.com  Mon Feb 17 02:24:32 2003
From: kimmo at poispakkoruotsi.com (Kimmo)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 03:24:32 +0200
Subject: [matroska-general] Matroska & DivX Certification
Message-ID: <002201c2d623$53d591a0$0100a8c0@kimmo>


About DivX certification:
http://www.divxnetworks.com/certified/about.php

Would you inform DivX guys that Matroska would be an excellent container for
DivX certification? I think that AVI+DivX+MP3 isn't as good as
Matroska+DivX+OGG. Informing needs to be done now, because they start now
asking for example Philips to add the container support for their DVD
players.


http://matroska.org



From christian at matroska.org  Mon Feb 17 05:04:12 2003
From: christian at matroska.org (ChristianHJW)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 05:04:12 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Matroska & DivX Certification
References: <002201c2d623$53d591a0$0100a8c0@kimmo>
Message-ID: <b2pmrf$af4$1@main.gmane.org>


"Kimmo" <kimmo at poispakkoruotsi.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:002201c2d623$53d591a0$0100a8c0 at kimmo...
> Would you inform DivX guys that Matroska would be an excellent container
for
> DivX certification?

Kimmo,

i did already, and several times. I used to post in their forums and send
emails to bez and sparky, but without any feedback. I knw Dan 'Bretaboy'
Marlin can win their interest once we have working tools.

Regards

Christian



http://matroska.org



From chris at matroska.org  Mon Feb 17 05:11:44 2003
From: chris at matroska.org (Christian HJ Wiesner)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 05:11:44 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Fw: Re: container format MPCF ( mplayer mediacontainer format )
Message-ID: <003401c2d63a$af2b4150$6500a8c0@mahlo.de>


FYI :

"D Richard Felker III" <dalias at aerifal.cx> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:<20030217015543.GE180 at brightrain.aerifal.cx>...

> On Sun, Feb 16, 2003 at 11:15:47PM +0100, ChristianHJW wrote:

> >

> > "Michael Niedermayer" <michaelni at gmx.at> schrieb im Newsbeitrag

> > news:200302081955.40434.michaelni at gmx.at...

> > > currently the index at the end is required for normal files (realtime

> > streams

> > > are an exception) but the index can be repeated if the muxer wants to

> > repeat

> > > it, this IMHO doesnt add any complexity to either the muxer or demuxer
but

> > > its more flexible for thouse crazy ppl who want a few copies of the
index

> > > Michael

> >

> > matroska Team came up with the very same solution. EBML allows us to
repeat

> > the meta seek tables ( = index ) as many times as we want in the file,
but

> > we normally write it at the end.

>

> Will you please stop this already? EBML is not some sorta holy grail

> that enables you to do this, it's just one (ugly and inefficient) way

> of storing the necessary info for muxed a/v (plus lots of other junk

> that doesn't need to exist on the muxer level). It's clear that

> MPlayer developers are not interested in your matroska, so why do you

> insist on trying to promote it over and over?

>

> BTW, having a backup index at arbitrary location is useless since the

> player won't know where to find it, unless you have a header at the

> beginning pointing to the indices. Of course this is silly and just

> wastes space since the index is redundant data that can be regenerated

> if it's damaged.

>

> Rich

As robux4 was pointing out already, seems as i've messed it up again :-(
.... i just feel so helpless against this a....le, i'd wish somebody from
the mplayer users told him how arrogant and ill he is.

Christian


http://matroska.org



From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Mon Feb 17 11:23:16 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 11:23:16 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [matroska-general] FLAC in ODD
Message-ID: <1045477396.3e50b814e59ae@imp.free.fr>


http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?act=ST&f=19&t=6550&s=11aab5aecc862ff1fa54cfeef2435a42

People are wondering the benefit of having FLAC available in an ODD stream,
since there is no existing tool to use it with other streams (ie video).
We should be able to mux CoreYUV :) and FLAC in matroska reasonably soon (1 or 2
months).
http://matroska.org



From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Mon Feb 17 14:35:49 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 14:35:49 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [matroska-general] Matroska logo
Message-ID: <1045488949.3e50e53584b13@imp.free.fr>


It would be nice to have a logo that fit next to this :
http://www.presence-pc.com/images/lecteur_divx_dx6526.jpg

Maybe the square thing is OK for that :
http://pages.infinit.net/therat03/matroska.htm
http://matroska.org



From chris at matroska.org  Mon Feb 17 15:13:16 2003
From: chris at matroska.org (Christian HJ Wiesner)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 15:13:16 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Message to the C porting team
Message-ID: <3E50EDFC.7050206@matroska.org>



Hi animesh, hi Santiago, hi shailesh !

Sorry to send another email to you guys, you might feel set under 
pressure meanwhile i guess, i hope you dont get me wrong here as this is 
certainly not my intention, not at all.

There is one big problem though with the task you guys have been 
offering to look at :

WE NEED THAT C LIBRARY DESPERATELY !!   The mplayer people have made 
clear to us that they dont want to distribute C++ sources with their 
player package, and mplayer is currently the most important player for 
the Linux world. Moritz 'mosu' Bunkus ( see cc. ) has a first version of 
a Linux muxer functional already, so in principal we could start to mux 
AVIs and MP3/Vorbis audio into matroska files right now on Linux, but we 
cant play them yet :-( ! Mosu can make a mplayer plugin once we have the 
C library or at least a C API.

Of course, we would prefer a solution with a complete port of the lib 
from C++ to C, because this was a 'clean' solution. On the other hand, 
if it helped to get mplayer ( or Xine ) support quickly, a C API or a C 
wrapper was just fine as well ! I dont know what the current status with 
you guys is right now, if you had the chance already to look at the 
sources, and even did some work, if you are keeping up communication 
between you, etc.

But please understand it is such an essential task for us, it is 
necessary that we get a kind of feedback from you if you are on the case 
or not, and what your current status is. Please guys, i'd like to 
receive an email from any of you about what your actual plans are, and 
if you think you can contribute to this, or if you dont find the time or 
are not interested anymore. Note that there are a couple of other 
interesting tasks pending as well, that have a lower priority for us, 
and such may be the ideal thing for you if you cant contribute to 
matroska on a regular basis.

I sincerely hope i could successfully explain to you how delicate this C 
porting job is for us, and why we need to get a first status report from 
you guys about the feasibility from your side. In any case we are glad 
to have you in the team, and we are looking forward to working with you 
on our beloved project.

Best regards

Christian

http://matroska.org



From animesh.srivastava at blr.techspan.com  Mon Feb 17 16:00:54 2003
From: animesh.srivastava at blr.techspan.com (Animesh Srivastava)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 20:30:54 +0530
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Message to the C porting team
Message-ID: <09079F636BE1D611BC1600B0D0FCAC6601EF7F@BLR>


Hi Chris, 
	Sorry for not being able to ping you earlier.. Well, the status so
far is not very encouraging,.. while Sailesh has not been able to get in
touch with me or santiago,.. I did recieve a couple of mails from Santiago..
his other committments are at the moment pulling him a bit too far to allow
him to contribute any efforts towards this.. at the same time, I guess he
has mentioned that Java being his core competency, it might just take a
little while for him to get going in C.. i understand that its a voluntary
help, ppl have committments and i always try to keep this in mind while
communicating.. 

I do realize the importance of the library, and I have been following
closely the discussions on the mailing lists, - the website too mentioned
the "impending" need of C library.. at the same time was trying to recode
everything clean in C.. The way I was approachin it was fundamental - went
thru the ebml specs of ours, and the wap ppl.. got the differences and
fundamentals clear.. code EBML first.. and then see if porting other things
in lib is also required by them.. 

Anyways,.. now that this impending is becoming really **immediate**,. let me
put a simple question.. wat is the first cut of code you would like to have?
wat functionalities it shud support? I mean, wat wud be the bare minimum
which those guys need at the earliest? It might seem strange at this time,
but I wud like to let u know that the answer to this wud help me a long way
in prioritising the work and get it done ASAP. What is the least that will
satisfy the mplayer ppl, and by wat earliest time we need it? 

Okay, at the same time,.. one more thing.. a C wrapper over a C++ lib would
do for them? but not a C++ lib,.. Why? I didnt get the point, (though it is
_not_ necessary to spend time and effort explaining me about that right now,
with so many things pushing around at such pace,.. but sometime in future if
u have time, I would be glad if you or someone else could explain the
reservations they have about using a C++ lib.. It might be pretty obvious to
some but pardon my limited understanding and do take pains to explain me
that..) For the time being, just let me know the bare minimum functionality
and by wen we need it... i will try my best to get it thru.. or let u know
if i realise that doing that within the given time frame is beyond the best
of my capabilities.. so that we can pool in some ppl and get it done.. 

- Animesh.
Hope u wont mind my using that salutation "Chris"... :)




-----Original Message-----
From: Christian HJ Wiesner [mailto:chris at matroska.org]
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 7:43 PM
To: animesh at matroska.org; santiago at matroska.org;
slmistry at users.sourceforge.net
Cc: moritz at matroska.org; robux4 at matroska.org;
matroska-general at freelists.org
Subject: [matroska-general] Message to the C porting team




Hi animesh, hi Santiago, hi shailesh !

Sorry to send another email to you guys, you might feel set under 
pressure meanwhile i guess, i hope you dont get me wrong here as this is 
certainly not my intention, not at all.

There is one big problem though with the task you guys have been 
offering to look at :

WE NEED THAT C LIBRARY DESPERATELY !!   The mplayer people have made 
clear to us that they dont want to distribute C++ sources with their 
player package, and mplayer is currently the most important player for 
the Linux world. Moritz 'mosu' Bunkus ( see cc. ) has a first version of 
a Linux muxer functional already, so in principal we could start to mux 
AVIs and MP3/Vorbis audio into matroska files right now on Linux, but we 
cant play them yet :-( ! Mosu can make a mplayer plugin once we have the 
C library or at least a C API.

Of course, we would prefer a solution with a complete port of the lib 
from C++ to C, because this was a 'clean' solution. On the other hand, 
if it helped to get mplayer ( or Xine ) support quickly, a C API or a C 
wrapper was just fine as well ! I dont know what the current status with 
you guys is right now, if you had the chance already to look at the 
sources, and even did some work, if you are keeping up communication 
between you, etc.

But please understand it is such an essential task for us, it is 
necessary that we get a kind of feedback from you if you are on the case 
or not, and what your current status is. Please guys, i'd like to 
receive an email from any of you about what your actual plans are, and 
if you think you can contribute to this, or if you dont find the time or 
are not interested anymore. Note that there are a couple of other 
interesting tasks pending as well, that have a lower priority for us, 
and such may be the ideal thing for you if you cant contribute to 
matroska on a regular basis.

I sincerely hope i could successfully explain to you how delicate this C 
porting job is for us, and why we need to get a first status report from 
you guys about the feasibility from your side. In any case we are glad 
to have you in the team, and we are looking forward to working with you 
on our beloved project.

Best regards

Christian

http://matroska.org
http://matroska.org



From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Mon Feb 17 16:35:37 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 16:35:37 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Message to the C porting team
In-Reply-To: <09079F636BE1D611BC1600B0D0FCAC6601EF7F@BLR>
References: <09079F636BE1D611BC1600B0D0FCAC6601EF7F@BLR>
Message-ID: <1045496137.3e510149d130c@imp.free.fr>


En r?ponse ? Animesh Srivastava <animesh.srivastava at blr.techspan.com>:

Hi Animesh,

> I do realize the importance of the library, and I have been following
> closely the discussions on the mailing lists, - the website too
> mentioned
> the "impending" need of C library.. at the same time was trying to
> recode
> everything clean in C.. The way I was approachin it was fundamental -
> went
> thru the ebml specs of ours, and the wap ppl.. got the differences and
> fundamentals clear.. code EBML first.. and then see if porting other
> things in lib is also required by them.. 
> 
> Anyways,.. now that this impending is becoming really **immediate**,.

Well, as we also tend to say a lot, this project is based on people's good will.
We have to make things for fun, to learn, and to make this thing grow. I often
said that one of our advantage is that we are not a company, we have no
deadline. We can take the time to make things as good as possible.

In the other hand, there is a growing pressure on our project to have something
working for the public soon. Soon means that it's before the MPCF format and
Xiph Theora are going public. This is just a strategic deadline to have this
little user preference in the end (we all know technical superiority is not
enough). That's why we are all under pressure at the moment (and I really don't
like that).

I think once we have myFUN's Direct Show filter working with a basic file, we
can release all this alpha code to selected beta testers (as found on the
corecodec forum). Once we reach this stage, we will probably be able to work at
a normal development speed (people will have something to play with, comments,
rants, etc). And we'll have time to prepare the first public launch.

The MPlayer support could be part of this public launch (beta), but I don't
think it's a priority for this coming (soon) release. That means you can take
your time (not too much ;) to make something working well and that will please
them (and other coders).

According to Mosu (Moritz Bunkus) they don't like C++ for portability and
compilers portability issues. I can understand that if they share their
libraries with other apps (is that the case ?). And in the end they will want
something in C. Now a C wrapper of the C++ library will probably have all the
disadvantages of C++ and the ones of C. So I personally think that there should
be an alternative library (libmatroska_c) written in C only. This library could
be later used in low profile hardware players too.

So if you think you can handle the creation of this library in C, I think you
should invest your time in that way. You will sooner or later get more help from
other coders (including some of us) because more people know C well in the open
source community. You may even get support from the MPlayer people if matroska
becomes popular faster than expected :)

PS: This is my own point of view, others may have a different one.
http://matroska.org



From moritz at bunkus.org  Mon Feb 17 16:51:09 2003
From: moritz at bunkus.org (Moritz Bunkus)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 16:51:09 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Message to the C porting team
In-Reply-To: <1045496137.3e510149d130c@imp.free.fr>
References: <09079F636BE1D611BC1600B0D0FCAC6601EF7F@BLR> <1045496137.3e510149d130c@imp.free.fr>
Message-ID: <20030217155109.GF26772@bunkus.org>


Hi.

> According to Mosu (Moritz Bunkus) they don't like C++ for portability and
> compilers portability issues. I can understand that if they share their
> libraries with other apps (is that the case ?). And in the end they will want
> something in C. Now a C wrapper of the C++ library will probably have all the
> disadvantages of C++ and the ones of C. So I personally think that there should
> be an alternative library (libmatroska_c) written in C only. This library could
> be later used in low profile hardware players too.

Exactly. A C wrapper around the C++ does not gain us (regarding
MPlayer) anything. As I said the MPlayer guys have had problems
compiling C++ with several compilers. MPlayer is used on a lot of
different operating systems with a LOT of different compiler versions
(from gcc 2.92 or something that new to 3.2.2), and not every one of
those versions handles C++ as well as others do.

-- 
 ==> Ciao, Mosu (Moritz Bunkus)
http://matroska.org



From christian.hj.wiesner at web.de  Mon Feb 17 18:18:09 2003
From: christian.hj.wiesner at web.de (Christian Wiesner)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 18:18:09 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Message to the C porting team
In-Reply-To: <09079F636BE1D611BC1600B0D0FCAC6601EF7F@BLR>
References: <09079F636BE1D611BC1600B0D0FCAC6601EF7F@BLR>
Message-ID: <3E511951.8070204@web.de>


Hi Animesh !!!

Animesh Srivastava wrote:

>Hi Chris, 
>	Sorry for not being able to ping you earlier.. Well, the status so
>far is not very encouraging,.. while Sailesh has not been able to get in
>touch with me or santiago,.. I did recieve a couple of mails from Santiago..
>his other committments are at the moment pulling him a bit too far to allow
>him to contribute any efforts towards this.. at the same time, I guess he
>has mentioned that Java being his core competency, it might just take a
>little while for him to get going in C.. i understand that its a voluntary
>help, ppl have committments and i always try to keep this in mind while
>communicating.. 
>
Dont worry, if Santiago feels stronger on Java he may contribute to 
spyder's existing EBML java classes first if he prefers that, and evolve 
into using C from there .... lets see what he will tell us if he finds 
the time to reply.

>I do realize the importance of the library, and I have been following
>  
>
>closely the discussions on the mailing lists, - the website too mentioned
>the "impending" need of C library.. at the same time was trying to recode
>everything clean in C.. The way I was approachin it was fundamental - went
>thru the ebml specs of ours, and the wap ppl.. got the differences and
>fundamentals clear.. code EBML first.. and then see if porting other things
>in lib is also required by them.. 
>  
>
Does that mean you really could start working on it already ?? Thats is 
great !!! That is in fact more than we could ever expect ! Thanks so 
much Animesh !

>Anyways,.. now that this impending is becoming really **immediate**,. let me
>put a simple question.. wat is the first cut of code you would like to have?
>wat functionalities it shud support? I mean, wat wud be the bare minimum
>which those guys need at the earliest? It might seem strange at this time,
>but I wud like to let u know that the answer to this wud help me a long way
>in prioritising the work and get it done ASAP. What is the least that will
>satisfy the mplayer ppl, and by wat earliest time we need it? 
>  
>
Mosu, can you please answer that question ? I guess its mainly the 
demuxing part that had to be done right ? But this may require all EBML 
classes to be existing first, right ?

>Okay, at the same time,.. one more thing.. a C wrapper over a C++ lib would
>do for them? but not a C++ lib,.. Why? I didnt get the point, (though it is
>_not_ necessary to spend time and effort explaining me about that right now,
>with so many things pushing around at such pace,.. but sometime in future if
>u have time, I would be glad if you or someone else could explain the
>reservations they have about using a C++ lib.. 
>
Huh, as always its well possible its me who is talking rubbish here, 
please always bare in mind i dont have the faintest idea of coding ;) !! 
Steve or Mosu, would you care to clarify ?

>It might be pretty obvious to
>some but pardon my limited understanding and do take pains to explain me
>that..) For the time being, just let me know the bare minimum functionality
>and by wen we need it... i will try my best to get it thru.. or let u know
>if i realise that doing that within the given time frame is beyond the best
>of my capabilities.. so that we can pool in some ppl and get it done.. 
>- Animesh.
>
Yup, let me try to repeat my advertising on sourceforge to see if 
anybody feels like helping us out. Also i heard that our friend spyder 
plans on improving his C knowledge :D ??

>Hope u wont mind my using that salutation "Chris"... :)
>
Not at all !! Contributors to matroska are my friends !

Regards

Christian


http://matroska.org



From shailesh.mistry at milan.eclipse.co.uk  Mon Feb 17 18:32:09 2003
From: shailesh.mistry at milan.eclipse.co.uk (Shailesh L Mistry)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 17:32:09 -0000
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Message to the C porting team
References: <09079F636BE1D611BC1600B0D0FCAC6601EF7F@BLR>
Message-ID: <00d501c2d6aa$8020e8e0$0200a8c0@desktop>


Hi Animesh,

>while Sailesh has not been able to get in touch with me or santiago,..

Apologies for not getting in touch, I misread the last email from Christian,
I was waiting for your email to tell me what needs doing first. I have been
in touch with Christian just to say that I could not access the old email
archive but I am starting to work my way through them now via the news
reader.

As for my C, I have been doing C commercially for the last 6 years, with
another 8 years previously in academia so just say the word and we can jump
in on the coding. I have downloaded the latest source but I am unsure what
parts (or is it all) that needs converting to C?

I look forward to working with you all.

Shelly

http://matroska.org



From chris at wiesneronline.net  Mon Feb 17 18:49:24 2003
From: chris at wiesneronline.net (Christian HJ Wiesner)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 18:49:24 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Message to the C porting team
In-Reply-To: <00d501c2d6aa$8020e8e0$0200a8c0@desktop>
References: <09079F636BE1D611BC1600B0D0FCAC6601EF7F@BLR> <00d501c2d6aa$8020e8e0$0200a8c0@desktop>
Message-ID: <3E5120A4.70605@wiesneronline.net>

Shailesh L Mistry wrote:

>Hi Animesh,
>
>  
>
>>while Sailesh has not been able to get in touch with me or santiago,..
>>    
>>
>
>Apologies for not getting in touch, I misread the last email from Christian,
>I was waiting for your email to tell me what needs doing first. I have been
>in touch with Christian just to say that I could not access the old email
>archive but I am starting to work my way through them now via the news
>reader.
>
>As for my C, I have been doing C commercially for the last 6 years, with
>another 8 years previously in academia so just say the word and we can jump
>in on the coding. I have downloaded the latest source but I am unsure what
>parts (or is it all) that needs converting to C?
>
>I look forward to working with you all.
>
>Shelly
>
>http://matroska.org
>  
>

Hi Shelly !!

Great to hear you could help us here, its an exciting phase we are in, 
there are improvements done almost every day, and i never would have 
believed we get working muxing tools for Linux almost the same time as 
we do for Windows. Mosu is a wizzard, and he has proven this by making 
the lib compile even on older GCC versions in world record time, and 
creating a basic muxer tool based on it pretty fast !

Mosu, could you please take the time now to tell the C porting team

- what the best solution would be
   * complete C port
   * C wrapper
   * basic C API

and what parts of the current libmatroska you needed first to get a 
mplayer plugin on the way ?

Shelly, please contact Animesh directly, as he will be the coordinator 
and project leader for the porting job ( he was first :P ! ). Hopefully 
after mosu tells us what to do you both can start cooperating, based on 
Ainmesh' work.

BTW, about a timeline for the porting : everything being within 8 weeks 
from now would be fine for me ! Other opinions welcome ...

Christian


http://matroska.org



From moritz at bunkus.org  Mon Feb 17 19:08:06 2003
From: moritz at bunkus.org (Moritz Bunkus)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 19:08:06 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Message to the C porting team
In-Reply-To: <3E5120A4.70605@wiesneronline.net>
References: <09079F636BE1D611BC1600B0D0FCAC6601EF7F@BLR> <00d501c2d6aa$8020e8e0$0200a8c0@desktop> <3E5120A4.70605@wiesneronline.net>
Message-ID: <20030217180806.GI26772@bunkus.org>


Hi.

> - what the best solution would be
>    * complete C port
>    * C wrapper
>    * basic C API

Complete C port, or at least all the stuff regarding READING a Matroska
file. As far as I can see I'd start with

 - a library that reads and decods EBML elements
 - then do the Matroska element decoding
 - code some EBML writing suppport
 - and at last the creation of Matroska elements

>From an API point of view I'm not quite certain how I'd design it.
Perhaps there could be a function 'find_next_ebml_element' which would
then return an ID (a simple uint32?) which denotes what kind of an
element that is? Then some functions 'element_to_uinteger',
'element_to_float', 'element_to_utf' and the likes.

One thing is really important: the library MUST NOT do its own file
handling! The current implementation does not do it either - well it
does somehow, but it uses an object derived from IOCallback so that the
user can implement his own file handling. Let the user hand over memory
to the library, and the library caches as much as it needs and returns
an error like ERROR_NEED_MORE_DATA_BEFORE_I_CAN_DECODE_THAT_ELEMENT (of
course you're free to chose something shorter ;)). I cannot stress this
enough. A _demultiplexer_ library is NOT supposed to do any I/O. That's
the stream layer's job. (Whether there is a complete stream layer or if
the application simply uses fread is not important.)

> and what parts of the current libmatroska you needed first to get a 
> mplayer plugin on the way ?

The first two parts: EBML reading/decoding, Matroska element
extraction.

> BTW, about a timeline for the porting : everything being within 8 weeks 
> from now would be fine for me ! Other opinions welcome ...

As I said, the creation part is NOT NEARLY as important. So don't waste
any time coding that, please, as I won't write a multiplexer for
mencoder (part of mplayer) in the near future. My own mktoolnix (tools
for creating Matroska files) are C++ themselves, so I don't the library
there either.

-- 
 ==> Ciao, Mosu (Moritz Bunkus)
http://matroska.org



From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Mon Feb 17 16:10:32 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 16:10:32 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [matroska-general] libmatroska license
Message-ID: <1045494632.3e50fb680d78f@imp.free.fr>


I'm not sure it has been announced publicly yet, so here it is :

Ingo Ralf Blum has agreed to change the files where he's the copyright owner to
dual QPL/GPL license. So now all sources of libmatroska and libebml can be used
with this license. I have changed the copyright notice in the files he's the
copyright owner.

So that's a pending (big) problem solved :) We can now make the code public.

When we'll have a legal entity for matroska (matroska.org sounds like a good
official name), I'll "give" my copy rights on the source code to that
organisation, so that it can deal with rights (and maybe sell the code to be
integrated in closed source systems).

(I hope Ingo will agree to do the same, or we'll have to recode a part of what
he did, namely the IO system)
http://matroska.org



From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Mon Feb 17 17:02:24 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 17:02:24 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [matroska-general] He he
Message-ID: <1045497744.3e5107905096b@imp.free.fr>


[16:45] <Mosu> steve just replied on matroska-devel
[16:46] <Cyrius> lo Steve =)
[16:46] <Cyrius> (I'm sure he reads the log somewhere ;))

Who me ?
:D
http://matroska.org



From animesh.srivastava at blr.techspan.com  Mon Feb 17 18:52:17 2003
From: animesh.srivastava at blr.techspan.com (Animesh Srivastava)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 23:22:17 +0530
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Message to the C porting team
Message-ID: <09079F636BE1D611BC1600B0D0FCAC6601EF81@BLR>


Thats Great.. !! Welcome to the team. :)

Having downloaded the code, I am pretty sure you must have been able to do a
quick make of it. Just have a look at the src code,.. we have the EBML
classes which form the base and then there are stuffs which use it.. Let me
know wat according to you would be the best way to port it to C - we have
options, we can either write a C wrapper around the existing code,.. or we
can do it clean.. fresh code in C.. ofcourse, it will take some time
though.. But if we coordinate judiciously we should be able to get it done
within a time frame which would keep the mplayer ppl happy... 

Let me know what do you think after having a prelim look at the code.. we
need to get goin.. and I would hate myself if we disappoint Chris..

Any problems anytime..?. pls do NOT hesisate to ping.. 
- Animesh.

-----Original Message-----
From: Shailesh L Mistry [mailto:shailesh.mistry at milan.eclipse.co.uk]
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 11:02 PM
To: Animesh Srivastava; matroska-general at freelists.org;
santiago at matroska.org
Cc: moritz at matroska.org; robux4 at matroska.org;
slmistry at users.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [matroska-general] Message to the C porting team


Hi Animesh,

>while Sailesh has not been able to get in touch with me or santiago,..

Apologies for not getting in touch, I misread the last email from Christian,
I was waiting for your email to tell me what needs doing first. I have been
in touch with Christian just to say that I could not access the old email
archive but I am starting to work my way through them now via the news
reader.

As for my C, I have been doing C commercially for the last 6 years, with
another 8 years previously in academia so just say the word and we can jump
in on the coding. I have downloaded the latest source but I am unsure what
parts (or is it all) that needs converting to C?

I look forward to working with you all.

Shelly
http://matroska.org



From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Tue Feb 18 10:01:36 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 10:01:36 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [matroska-general] www.matroska.org
Message-ID: <1045558896.3e51f6704ae1e@imp.free.fr>


Hi

I've seen that many people use the http://matroska.org/ name when giving a
matroska URL. The problem is that this URL has to last for a long time. And if
we later need to get a mail server, NNTP server or whatever under the name
matroska.org, it will have to be all on the same machine ! (unless you hack the
network and redirect traffic based on the port used).

That's why it would be better to use http://www.matroska.og/ which means that we
have the option to have only the webserver on one machine. For the mail it could
be smtp.matroska.org or pop.matroska.org, for IRC irc.matroska.org. Some of them
could be share with CoreCodec.

0.02?
http://matroska.org



From moritz at bunkus.org  Tue Feb 18 10:44:31 2003
From: moritz at bunkus.org (Moritz Bunkus)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 10:44:31 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: www.matroska.org
In-Reply-To: <1045558896.3e51f6704ae1e@imp.free.fr>
References: <1045558896.3e51f6704ae1e@imp.free.fr>
Message-ID: <20030218094431.GK26772@bunkus.org>


Hi.

> http://matroska.org

I agree, and we should start by changing the ML's signature ;)

-- 
 ==> Ciao, Mosu (Moritz Bunkus)
http://matroska.org



From animesh.srivastava at blr.techspan.com  Tue Feb 18 13:59:44 2003
From: animesh.srivastava at blr.techspan.com (Animesh Srivastava)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 18:29:44 +0530
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Message to the C porting team
Message-ID: <09079F636BE1D611BC1600B0D0FCAC6601EF83@BLR>


Hi,
-----Original Message-----
From: Moritz Bunkus [mailto:moritz at bunkus.org]
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 11:38 PM
To: matroska-general at freelists.org
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Message to the C porting team

> - a library that reads and decods EBML elements
> - then do the Matroska element decoding
> - code some EBML writing suppport
> - and at last the creation of Matroska elements

	Few things,
. Do we have any test (dummy) Matroska files (against which one may test the
reading of EBML elements/Matroska headers)
. Or do we have any utility which would write Matroska files with known
elements
. Or any test code which loads the existing libmatroska and uses it in
reading (or writing) Matroska files?

A dummy Matroska file, or any tool/code which can create one such file would
really be helpful.. 

> One thing is really important: the library MUST NOT do its own file
> handling! The current implementation does not do it either - well it
> does somehow, but it uses an object derived from IOCallback so that the
> user can implement his own file handling...

Sounds good :)
	
 - Animesh.
http://www.matroska.org



From moritz at bunkus.org  Tue Feb 18 14:27:04 2003
From: moritz at bunkus.org (Moritz Bunkus)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 14:27:04 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Message to the C porting team
In-Reply-To: <09079F636BE1D611BC1600B0D0FCAC6601EF83@BLR>
References: <09079F636BE1D611BC1600B0D0FCAC6601EF83@BLR>
Message-ID: <20030218132704.GB17832@bunkus.org>

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From shailesh.mistry at milan.eclipse.co.uk  Tue Feb 18 19:15:22 2003
From: shailesh.mistry at milan.eclipse.co.uk (Shailesh L Mistry)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 18:15:22 -0000
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Message to the C porting team
References: <09079F636BE1D611BC1600B0D0FCAC6601EF83@BLR> <20030218132704.GB17832@bunkus.org>
Message-ID: <b2tsv5$eur$1@main.gmane.org>

Hi Mosu,

>> Animesh wrote :
>> Or do we have any utility which would write Matroska files with known
elements

> Mosu wrote :
> Only for Linux so far, and it's not really usable ;)

Do you have a guess for when this will be finished?
Any plans for porting it to windows? Do you need a hand for this?

Shelly.



http://www.matroska.org



From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Tue Feb 18 21:04:15 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 21:04:15 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Message to the C porting team
In-Reply-To: <b2tsv5$eur$1@main.gmane.org>
References: <09079F636BE1D611BC1600B0D0FCAC6601EF83@BLR> <20030218132704.GB17832@bunkus.org> <b2tsv5$eur$1@main.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <3E5291BF.2040802@free.fr>


Shailesh L Mistry wrote:
> Hi Mosu,
> 
> 
>>>Animesh wrote :
>>>Or do we have any utility which would write Matroska files with known
> 
> elements
> 
> 
>>Mosu wrote :
>>Only for Linux so far, and it's not really usable ;)
> 
> 
> Do you have a guess for when this will be finished?
> Any plans for porting it to windows? Do you need a hand for this?

The original code is all done on Windows :)
You can get the code from CVS and compile it with MSVC++6 or with Cygwin 
(using the cygwin makefile or the linux makefile).

src/tests/mux/test6.cpp example creates a valid EBML/matroska file.
src/tests/mux/test8.cpp example parses this EBML/matroska file.

If you need just a test file we can send one to you (or get the ones 
from Mosu which are hopefully correct ;)

http://www.matroska.org



From shailesh.mistry at milan.eclipse.co.uk  Tue Feb 18 23:57:34 2003
From: shailesh.mistry at milan.eclipse.co.uk (Shailesh L Mistry)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 22:57:34 -0000
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Message to the C porting team
References: <09079F636BE1D611BC1600B0D0FCAC6601EF83@BLR> <20030218132704.GB17832@bunkus.org> <b2tsv5$eur$1@main.gmane.org> <3E5291BF.2040802@free.fr>
Message-ID: <b2udkq$v6e$1@main.gmane.org>


> Steve Lhomme wrote:
> The original code is all done on Windows :)
> You can get the code from CVS and compile it with MSVC++6 or with Cygwin
> (using the cygwin makefile or the linux makefile).
>
> src/tests/mux/test6.cpp example creates a valid EBML/matroska file.
> src/tests/mux/test8.cpp example parses this EBML/matroska file.
>
> If you need just a test file we can send one to you (or get the ones
> from Mosu which are hopefully correct ;)

that would be great, please can someone send me a valid test file.
If you send it via the group email then the test file will be in the archive
for future use.

Shelly.



http://www.matroska.org



From moritz at bunkus.org  Wed Feb 19 00:10:48 2003
From: moritz at bunkus.org (Moritz Bunkus)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 00:10:48 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Message to the C porting team
In-Reply-To: <b2udkq$v6e$1@main.gmane.org>
References: <09079F636BE1D611BC1600B0D0FCAC6601EF83@BLR> <20030218132704.GB17832@bunkus.org> <b2tsv5$eur$1@main.gmane.org> <3E5291BF.2040802@free.fr> <b2udkq$v6e$1@main.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20030218231048.GA3472@bunkus.org>

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From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Tue Feb 18 16:43:53 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 16:43:53 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [matroska-general] VideoLAN Client
Message-ID: <1045583033.3e5254b94322b@imp.free.fr>


Is this what is called FUD ?

http://www.videolan.org/vlc/features.html

"Video Codecs 	
Tarkin 	Yes 	Yes 	Yes 	Yes 	Yes 	No
Theora 	Yes 	Yes 	Yes 	Yes 	Yes 	No"

Anyway, I hope they'll soon have matroska in "File/stream formats" :D
http://www.matroska.org



From chris at wiesneronline.net  Tue Feb 18 17:03:35 2003
From: chris at wiesneronline.net (Christian HJ Wiesner)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 17:03:35 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: VideoLAN Client
In-Reply-To: <1045583033.3e5254b94322b@imp.free.fr>
References: <1045583033.3e5254b94322b@imp.free.fr>
Message-ID: <3E525957.1090002@wiesneronline.net>


Steve Lhomme wrote :

 > Is this what is called FUD ?
 > http://www.videolan.org/vlc/features.html
 > "Video Codecs

>Tarkin 	Yes 	Yes 	Yes 	Yes 	Yes 	No
>Theora 	Yes 	Yes 	Yes 	Yes 	Yes 	No"
>
>  
>

It certainly could be true with respect to Theora ( the codec ), but of 
course not true about Ogg Theora ( the framework ). And for Tarkin, 
AFAIK this is absolutely impossible as there are no working en/decoder 
as of yet. My last piece of information about Tarkin was that its 
capable of compressing single frames, with pretty good results, but the 
whole 3D wavelet compression stuff was missing, and maybe even will 
never be finished at all :-( ..... i guess nicolas could tell us more ?

 >Anyway, I hope they'll soon have matroska in "File/stream formats" :D

Actually, i was planning to contact them as soon as Moritz' or Cyrius muxers are working and we have working test files ... i hope they are not insisting on a C library or C API also ?

Regards

Christian



http://www.matroska.org



From Paul at msn.com  Wed Feb 19 06:58:52 2003
From: Paul at msn.com (Pamel)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 23:58:52 -0600
Subject: [matroska-general] NETWORK-INTEGRATED MULTIMEDIA MIDDLEWARE FOR LINUX
References: <1045583033.3e5254b94322b@imp.free.fr> <3E525957.1090002@wiesneronline.net>
Message-ID: <b2v6e9$fi3$1@main.gmane.org>

On this same line of thinking, there was this site posted on Slashdot a few
days ago.  http://graphics.cs.uni-sb.de/NMM/

I wasn't able to tell how closely related to the Matroska project it would
be because it only has really dumbed down descriptions, and then the specs.
If someone could give a quick description of if this could be used to
benefit the Matroska project, I would be very appriciative.


Pamel



http://www.matroska.org



From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Wed Feb 19 09:32:01 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 09:32:01 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: NETWORK-INTEGRATED MULTIMEDIA MIDDLEWARE FOR LINUX
In-Reply-To: <b2v6e9$fi3$1@main.gmane.org>
References: <1045583033.3e5254b94322b@imp.free.fr> <3E525957.1090002@wiesneronline.net> <b2v6e9$fi3$1@main.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1045643521.3e5341012c8ef@imp.free.fr>


En r?ponse ? Pamel <Paul at msn.com>:

> On this same line of thinking, there was this site posted on Slashdot a
> few
> days ago.  http://graphics.cs.uni-sb.de/NMM/
> 
> I wasn't able to tell how closely related to the Matroska project it
> would
> be because it only has really dumbed down descriptions, and then the
> specs.
> If someone could give a quick description of if this could be used to
> benefit the Matroska project, I would be very appriciative.

I think it's a project to be able to send any multimedia content on the network
(local or wide). This is very network oriented and little multimedia oriented.
I'm not sure there can be any direct link with matroska. Maybe the same that
could exist between VideoLAN and matroska.
http://www.matroska.org



From chris at matroska.org  Wed Feb 19 15:25:53 2003
From: chris at matroska.org (Christian HJ Wiesner)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 15:25:53 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: To the new Team members of Matroska
In-Reply-To: <DAV19QDlP8V9oVUbMUC0001610a@hotmail.com>
References: <007101c2d35f$ee04a1b0$a70aa8c0@mahlo.de> <DAV19QDlP8V9oVUbMUC0001610a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3E5393F1.2060507@matroska.org>


d669 wrote:

> Hi Christian,  
> In reply to your request of a meeting for the logo I hereby react to it. 
> The best date for a meeting would be tommorow, thursday 20-02-03. I live 
> in the Netherlands and a good time would be about 20:00 on the IRC. 
> Please let me know if this time is ok with you.

Sounds fine to me !! Maybe i will be able to join a little later, as 8 
PM is usually the time when i bring my son to bed. Thursday is good as 
my regulations from my government ( wife :D ) will not allow me to 
access my PC before 10 PM on mondays, wednesdays and fridays ... lol !

> I had placed a link in my previous mail to my design of the logo: 
> http://80.126.17.41/~david/matroska/matroska_logo_small.gif

David, we had a look at your logo and we found it had to be improved in 
many aspects, as it was looking a bit 'old-fashioned' to us, a bit like 
60s style. The idea with the 'container' boxes was good, but not refined 
enough IMHO.

> I still would have liked a personal reply. Have I joint the team now or 
 > not?
> Hope to hear from you soon,
> David

David, we are happy about every help we get and if you are interested to 
join our team you are gladly welcome. Please note that we had a couple 
of replies about help for logo design as a result of our last job 
posting on sourceforge, and yours seems to be one of the few who were 
really interested to help us, and were not trying to make bussiness by 
offering us paid services ( this sucks, all these assholes should know 
what sourceforge is, its a place for free software development and not 
one to offer paid services to members of open source projects ).

Currently there is our new team member Rath0 working on a matroska logo 
and website design since more than one week now, and his first drafts 
were looking very good to us. I know i have a link handy at home, but 
not here, sorry :( .

In any case, we still have more than work enough to do for a webdesigner 
or logo designer wanting to help us :

Make a MPC logo/icon  ( http://corecodec.org/projects/mpc )
Make a USF logo/icon  ( http://corecodec.org/projects/usf )
Make a EBML logo/icon ( http://ebml.sf.net )
make a UCI logo/icon ( http://uci.sf.net , a related project, not in our 
charge )
create webpage design for all projects mentioned above, except MPC ( 
phase is doing that already, check http://www.musepack-source.de , but 
note this is the old design )

I dont think it makes sense that we have 2 people working on the 
matroska logo, and as Rath0 does a wonderful job so far i wouldnt want 
to change a winning team.

But again, look at the list of things that had to be done and you will 
certainly understand that your help was needed badly, as we cant handle 
this all alone. Looking forward to meet you tonight on IRC !

Best regards

Christian

BTW : i always copy the mailing lists with such messages, as it saves a 
lot of time if i dont have to explain to the other team members who you 
are and why you are here ;) ... this is NOT ment to be impersonal at all

http://www.matroska.org



From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Wed Feb 19 18:09:28 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 18:09:28 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [matroska-general] XML & Security
Message-ID: <1045674568.3e53ba4851eed@imp.free.fr>


"XML Security Standard Ratified"
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,893831,00.asp

On another note :
<Pamel> Not a very busy day, eh?

He he. We were waiting for you ! ;)
http://www.matroska.org



From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Thu Feb 20 14:11:30 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 14:11:30 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [matroska-general] Industry initiative for an open audio plugin system
Message-ID: <1045746690.3e54d402f1ce2@imp.free.fr>


The following is taken from a post by Cakewalk's Ron Kuper on Steinberg's VST
Dev List, I thought those of you not subscribed to any programmers lists may
find it interesting.

The Generalized Music Plug-In Interface (GMPI) working group of the MIDI
Manufacturer's Association (MMA) is seeking the input of music and audio
software developers, to help define the technical requirements of GMPI.

The objective of the GMPI working group is to create a unified cross-platform
music plug-in interface. This new interface is hoped to provide an alternative
choice to the multitude of plug-in interfaces that exist today. Among the many
benefits of standardization are increased choice for customers, lower cost for
music plug-in vendors and a secure future for valuable market-enabling technology.

Like MIDI, GMPI will be license free and royalty free.

Phase 1 of the GMPI working group's effort is to determine what is required of
GMPI: What sorts of capabilities are needed to support existing products and
customers? What are the emerging new directions that must be addressed?

Phase 1 is open to any music software developer and is not limited to MMA
members. It will last a minimum of three months, to be extended if deemed
necessary by the MMA. Discussions will be held on an email reflector, with
possible meetings at major industry gatherings such as AES, NAMM and Musik Messe.

Following the collection of requirements in Phase 1, the members of the MMA will
meet to discuss and evaluate proposals, in accordance with existing MMA
procedures for developing standards. There will be one or more periods for
public comment prior to adoption by MMA members.

If you are a developer with a serious interest in the design of this
specification, and are not currently a member of the MMA, we urge you to
consider joining. Fees are not prohibitively high even for a small commercial
developer. Your fees will pay for administration, legal fees and marketing.
Please visit http://www.midi.org for more information about membership.

To participate, please email gmpi-request at freelists.org with the word "
subscribe" in the subject line. Please also provide your name, company name (if
any) and a brief description of your personal or corporate domain of interest.
We look forward to hearing from you.

Sincerely,

Ron Kuper
GMPI Working Group Chair
http://www.matroska.org



From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Thu Feb 20 17:11:01 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 17:11:01 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: [UCI-Devel] Industry initiative for an open audio plugin system
In-Reply-To: <1045746690.3e54d402f1ce2@imp.free.fr>
References: <1045746690.3e54d402f1ce2@imp.free.fr>
Message-ID: <1045757461.3e54fe15b738d@imp.free.fr>


En r?ponse ? Steve Lhomme <steve.lhomme at free.fr>:

> The following is taken from a post by Cakewalk's Ron Kuper on
> Steinberg's VST
> Dev List, I thought those of you not subscribed to any programmers lists
> may
> find it interesting.

There is a mailing list on freelists :
gmpi at freelists.org
http://www.freelists.org/archives/gmpi/
http://www.matroska.org



From Paul at msn.com  Thu Feb 20 17:34:58 2003
From: Paul at msn.com (Pamel)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 10:34:58 -0600
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: [UCI-Devel] Industry initiative for an open audio plugin system
References: <1045746690.3e54d402f1ce2@imp.free.fr> <1045757461.3e54fe15b738d@imp.free.fr>
Message-ID: <b3302i$nl3$1@main.gmane.org>

"Steve Lhomme" <steve.lhomme at free.fr> wrote
> En r?ponse ? Steve Lhomme <steve.lhomme at free.fr>:
>
> > The following is taken from a post by Cakewalk's Ron Kuper on
> > Steinberg's VST

Had you considered how to break down midi to put it in Matroska?


Pamel



http://www.matroska.org



From chris at matroska.org  Thu Feb 20 17:12:40 2003
From: chris at matroska.org (Christian HJ Wiesner)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 17:12:40 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Developer Access - C porting Team
In-Reply-To: <000401c2d8c7$e380dd40$0200a8c0@desktop>
References: <004a01c2d7a7$de8a21a0$0200a8c0@desktop> <3E531607.2090101@matroska.org> <000801c2d801$1ba350d0$0200a8c0@desktop> <3E5447E6.5060103@matroska.org> <000401c2d8c7$e380dd40$0200a8c0@desktop>
Message-ID: <3E54FE78.1070103@matroska.org>


Shailesh L Mistry wrote:
> Hi Christian,
> I have set up xchat but the latest version crashes for me so I am stuck with
> 1.8.11
> I am in the uk, which zone are you guys in?

raghav : GMT+5 ( India )
BlackSun : GMT +3 ( Reunion Island )
robux4, Cyrius, Mosu, myFUN, Frank Klemm, Belgabor, md' , BBB, David, 
ChristianHJW : GMT+1 ( CET )
shelly : GMT ( UK )
Rath0, Pamel : GMT-5 ( USA, East Coast )
spyder : GMT-6 ( USA, middle of nowhere :P )
Milkman.Dan : GMT-6 ?
animesh, how tam : GMT-7/8  ?  ( USA, WestCoast )
santiago ?

I hope i didnt forget anybody, if so please forgive me, sourceforge is 
down ( again ) so i cant access the dev list to look it up.

> that was one of the first things I did but I don't see all the messages at
> the moment. I may have to re-subscribe. 
> Shelly.

As a very good alternative you may fire up your newsreader, enter 
news.gmane.org as newsserver and subscribe to the

gmane.comp.multimedia.matroska.xxx

newsgroups. This NNTP interface is a great thing, its a perfect mail 
archive accessible via newsreader ( all the old emails are in there ) 
and does allow you not only to read the mails to the lists, but you can 
also reply to them by simply replying to the newsgroup. For the very 
first post to a specific list it will send you an authentication email 
you have to reply to, as a kind of spam protection.

Christian

http://www.matroska.org



From spyder482 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 21 01:20:07 2003
From: spyder482 at yahoo.com (John Cannon)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 18:20:07 -0600
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Developer Access - C porting Team
References: <004a01c2d7a7$de8a21a0$0200a8c0@desktop> <3E531607.2090101@matroska.org> <000801c2d801$1ba350d0$0200a8c0@desktop> <3E5447E6.5060103@matroska.org> <000401c2d8c7$e380dd40$0200a8c0@desktop> <3E54FE78.1070103@matroska.org>
Message-ID: <b33ra5$3ad$1@main.gmane.org>


> Rath0, Pamel : GMT-5 ( USA, East Coast )

Paul(Pamel) is in Texas as far as I know.  That put's him in the same
timezone as me :P

> spyder : GMT-6 ( USA, middle of nowhere :P )
> Milkman.Dan : GMT-6 ?

Not the middle of nowhere :P
Yes MilkmanDan is in my timezone too.  Oklahome to be exact.

> animesh, how tam : GMT-7/8  ?  ( USA, WestCoast )

Good. Some more Americans.

Spyder




http://www.matroska.org



From kimmo at poispakkoruotsi.com  Fri Feb 21 05:18:03 2003
From: kimmo at poispakkoruotsi.com (Kimmo)
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 06:18:03 +0200
Subject: [matroska-general] Matroska + MP4
References: <004a01c2d7a7$de8a21a0$0200a8c0@desktop> <3E531607.2090101@matroska.org> <000801c2d801$1ba350d0$0200a8c0@desktop> <3E5447E6.5060103@matroska.org> <000401c2d8c7$e380dd40$0200a8c0@desktop> <3E54FE78.1070103@matroska.org> <b33ra5$3ad$1@main.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <013301c2d960$3a233970$0100a8c0@kimmo>


Found this from Doom9 forums and I'm interested what do you think about
that?

Originally posted by ChristianHJW
>In fact, whats looking like a disadvantage at first sight could turn out to
be a major argument for any hardware
>company to adapt either OGM, MCF ( mf  ) or matroska in their players, as
all three have CRC32 as EDC
>coming with them while AVI has not, making it not very well suited for
mode2 form2 burning. Sure, we could use
>MP4 via XCD also, but this would deinitely be outside MP4 specs, so why at
all use a proprietary, IMHO inferior
>container if its main advantage, being to procude files compatible with an
industry standard, is not given anymore ??

Mode 2 Form 2 already has error detection so, in theory at least, the CRC32
in OGM and matroska is redundant. Personally I believe the future lies with
mp4 - with MovieDataAtom(s) written as Mode 2 Form 2 and everything else as
Mode 2 Form 1. Alternatively a new type of data reference URL/URN could be
used to refer to data that is present in Mode 2 Form 2 on the same disk as
the .mp4.

EDIT: It is feasible that a file can have more than one format. For example,
if we were clever enough, we could have a large matrovska file in Mode 2
Form 2 sectors (most of the CD) and a stub .mp4 file in the ordinary CDROM
filesystem. The .mp4 would contain only a MovieAtom and would refer to the
raw samplw data in the Mode 2 Form 2 segments. Ergo: both formats.
Everyone's happy (with a few MB more overhead) Perhaps we should continue
this discussion in another thread if there's more to be said.

There is enough weight behind mp4 to ensure that it will become a widespread
standard for stand-alone players. It would be nice to see mp4/CDROM done
well.

I agree with you that it is very nice to see the Open Source / DivX scene
getting some recognition. Great things have happened in the last year or so.


http://www.matroska.org



From animesh.srivastava at blr.techspan.com  Fri Feb 21 06:13:10 2003
From: animesh.srivastava at blr.techspan.com (Animesh Srivastava)
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 10:43:10 +0530
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Developer Access - C porting Team
Message-ID: <09079F636BE1D611BC1600B0D0FCAC6601EF89@BLR>


>> animesh, how tam : GMT-7/8  ?  ( USA, WestCoast )

Its GMT+5 (India)

http://www.matroska.org



From Paul at msn.com  Fri Feb 21 18:57:57 2003
From: Paul at msn.com (Pamel)
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 11:57:57 -0600
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Developer Access - C porting Team
References: <09079F636BE1D611BC1600B0D0FCAC6601EF89@BLR>
Message-ID: <b35p9s$426$1@main.gmane.org>

"Animesh Srivastava" <animesh.srivastava at blr.techspan.com> wrote
> >> animesh, how tam : GMT-7/8  ?  ( USA, WestCoast )
>
> Its GMT+5 (India)

Man, spyder428 wasn't even close.

My roomate lived in India for a few months.  About all he had to say was
there was a leper that lived outside his door, and the salesmen were pretty
extreme.  But this hasn't detered my from really wanting to go there
someday.


Pamel.



http://www.matroska.org



From spyder at wiesneronline.net  Fri Feb 21 21:52:02 2003
From: spyder at wiesneronline.net (John Cannon)
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 14:52:02 -0600
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Developer Access - C porting Team
References: <09079F636BE1D611BC1600B0D0FCAC6601EF89@BLR> <b35p9s$426$1@main.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <000501c2d9eb$16ac2e80$3491be3f@johnc>


Actually, Chris said that.  I have never even spoke to them :)

http://www.matroska.org



From chris at matroska.org  Sat Feb 22 15:57:34 2003
From: chris at matroska.org (Christian HJ Wiesner)
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 15:57:34 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Announcement : First matroska file creation and editing application,
 'matroskadub', is released for alpha testing
Message-ID: <3E578FDE.2070106@matroska.org>



Gentlemen,

i do have the pleasure to announce that Cyrius has given me a first 
alpha version of matroskadub for uploading to the alpha testing teams on 
corecodec.com and virtualdub.everwicked.com .
The file can be downloaded here : 
http://downlaods.matroska.org/VirtualDubMod-Matroska-Alpha.rar

The tool is based on VirtualdubMod, you have to exchange the EXE in a 
valid installation folder against this special version to make it work, 
get VirtualdubMod from the offical Project page here : 
http://sf.net/projects/virtualdubmod , dont forget to load the 
'necessary DLLs' also.

There is still a severe memory leak in the library, but we hope to be 
able to solve this  soon.

All eyes are on myFUN now about the DShow parser, and mosu for the Linux 
muxer :-) !!

Regards

Christian

http://www.matroska.org



From kimmo at poispakkoruotsi.com  Sat Feb 22 19:04:39 2003
From: kimmo at poispakkoruotsi.com (Kimmo)
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 20:04:39 +0200
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Announcement : First matroska file creation and editing application, 'matroskadub', is released for alpha testing
References: <3E578FDE.2070106@matroska.org>
Message-ID: <002201c2da9c$df225e00$0100a8c0@kimmo>



> Gentlemen,
>
> i do have the pleasure to announce that Cyrius has given me a first
> alpha version of matroskadub for uploading to the alpha testing teams on
> corecodec.com and virtualdub.everwicked.com .
> The file can be downloaded here :
> http://downlaods.matroska.org/VirtualDubMod-Matroska-Alpha.rar


http://downloads.matroska.org/VirtualDubMod-Matroska-Alpha.rar should work
better ;)


http://www.matroska.org



From kimmo at poispakkoruotsi.com  Sun Feb 23 01:06:15 2003
From: kimmo at poispakkoruotsi.com (Kimmo)
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 02:06:15 +0200
Subject: [matroska-general] Should Matroska take some code here?
Message-ID: <000701c2dacf$6658db60$0100a8c0@kimmo>


http://mediaxw.sourceforge.net/

"Media XW's project goals are to add numerous media formats to windows and
to provide an quick and easy method to install and configure the media
formats. The project is written in C++ and is released under the GPL and
LGPL licenses, the source code can be downloaded using one of the scripts
found in the download section."

This seems same as your plan to make a codec interface to Matroska. Maybe
even Matroska would support Quicktime codec plugins as Sorenson and WM9?


http://www.matroska.org



From spyder at wiesneronline.net  Sun Feb 23 17:06:00 2003
From: spyder at wiesneronline.net (John Cannon)
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 10:06:00 -0600
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Should Matroska take some code here?
References: <000701c2dacf$6658db60$0100a8c0@kimmo>
Message-ID: <001301c2db55$76565e30$7688b141@johnc>


Isn't this Ingo's project?

Spyder


http://www.matroska.org



From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Sun Feb 23 18:46:17 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 18:46:17 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Should Matroska take some code here?
In-Reply-To: <000701c2dacf$6658db60$0100a8c0@kimmo>
References: <000701c2dacf$6658db60$0100a8c0@kimmo> <001301c2db55$76565e30$7688b141@johnc>
Message-ID: <3E5908E9.50009@free.fr>


John Cannon wrote:

> Isn't this Ingo's project?


Yes, we already have some code from Ingo in our code :D
BTW, what would be needed from MediaXW in libmatroska ?


http://www.matroska.org



From chris at matroska.org  Mon Feb 24 11:11:12 2003
From: chris at matroska.org (Christian HJ Wiesner)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 11:11:12 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Registration of the matroska project on Corecodec.org - everybody
 go there and register !!
Message-ID: <3E59EFC0.5070103@matroska.org>



Hi all !!

A long awaited day is coming closer and closer, the official launch date 
of http://corecodec.org !! I guess most of you will now what it is and 
what its good for already, for all the others here is a short explanation :

Corecodec.org is an opensource platform and community, just like 
sourceforge.net, but dedicated for audio and video compression. The main 
goal is to offer a bit more than just hosting for the project, by 
improving the communication between the single projects hosted on 
cc.org, and by assisting the developers registering a project there, 
starting from help with webpage creation to logo's, licensing questions, 
etc.

sourceforge.net is a great institution, an uncountable number of 
projects is hosted on it and a lot of great software has been started 
there, like apache or phpBB. But due to the high number of registered 
projects its impossible for the project admins to keep an overview of 
what that individual projects are doing, leave alone to help them. 
sourceforge is great host, but thats it !

The idea behind corecodec.org is to offer much more than that, by 
forming a real community, dedicated for one specific field being audio 
and video compression. The founders will work hard to make it a real 
advantage for developers if they decide to have their projects being 
hosted on corecodec.org instead of sourceforge.

Its maybe worth mentioning that we are in steady contact with the FSF, 
the entity behind sourceforge, to win them for our ideas and maybe even 
to get a free hosting from them one day. This was already planned 
together with FSF Germany, but unfortunately was stopped by FSF USA due 
to some misinformation about Corecodec being forwarded to them by the 
project administrator of another opensource community.


Well, you may ask whats the deal for matroska ?

Steve and me have decided long ago that we will move the matroska 
project from sourceforge to Corecodec.org once they have their server up 
and running, all services are running stable and the hosting is secured. 
While the server is running stable now for quite some time already and 
Cyt0plas, the corecodec admin, has managed to install GForge on RedHat 
Linux and to implement a working user/shell handling based on mysql, we 
will slowly move the project.

I am asking all of you to register on corecodec.org now ( 
http://corecodec.org/account/register.php ) and to send me a short email 
with the nickname you have been chosen, so i can add you to the project 
developers list.

Important note !

Please be aware that we will NOT move the project to corecodec.org  over 
night ! We plan to use all CVS facilities from sourceforge for the next 
time, and to test the CVS functionality on the new server thoroughly 
before making a cut here, most probably in about 2 - 3 months from now.

On the other hand, there will be a couple of things we wont do on the 
sf.net shell anymore, like defining jobs. AS we can rely the gforge 
interface here fully i will start doing them as soon as everybody has 
registered on cc.org .

Sorry for the long email

Regards

Christian

http://www.matroska.org



From chris at matroska.org  Mon Feb 24 12:12:08 2003
From: chris at matroska.org (Christian HJ Wiesner)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 12:12:08 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Registration of the matroska project on Corecodec.org
 - everybody go there and register !!
In-Reply-To: <3E59EFC0.5070103@matroska.org>
References: <3E59EFC0.5070103@matroska.org>
Message-ID: <3E59FE08.8030808@matroska.org>


Christian HJ Wiesner wrote:
> Hi all !! 
> A long awaited day is coming closer and closer, the official launch date 
> of http://corecodec.org !! I guess most of you will now what it is and 
> what its good for already, for all the others here is a short explanation :

Those who already have an account on corecodec.ORG  ( NOT corecodec.COM 
) , please go there and renew your password. You may even chose to use 
the same password, but its necessary such that you can be added to the 
new user shell.

This is important, so please go there NOW !

Christian

http://www.matroska.org



From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Tue Feb 25 10:20:22 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 10:20:22 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [matroska-general] Interresting article
Message-ID: <1046164822.3e5b3556b2766@imp.free.fr>


On what open source softwares need to avoid

http://www.theideabasket.com/index.php/article/articleview/79/2/2/

Incompatibilities & simply cloning existing closed-source softwares.
http://www.matroska.org



From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Tue Feb 25 12:55:17 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 12:55:17 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [matroska-general] ODD Vorbis
Message-ID: <1046174117.3e5b59a5c3a2f@imp.free.fr>


Early tests with MatroskaDub (not mine) show that video+vorbis is smaller in
matroska than in ODD. It would be interresting to test wether it's also the case
with Vorbis only. If so, that will be a good reason to push matroska in the
hardware world as soon as possible, since ODD Vorbis is getting hardware support
these days, I'm sure users would like to save a few more bytes (octets ;) on
their players.

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2131016,00.html?rtag=zdnetukhompage
http://www.matroska.org



From chris at matroska.org  Tue Feb 25 13:44:26 2003
From: chris at matroska.org (Christian HJ Wiesner)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 13:44:26 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: OGG Vorbis  ( ;-) )
In-Reply-To: <1046174117.3e5b59a5c3a2f@imp.free.fr>
References: <1046174117.3e5b59a5c3a2f@imp.free.fr>
Message-ID: <3E5B652A.8070205@matroska.org>


Steve Lhomme wrote:
> Early tests with MatroskaDub (not mine) show that video+vorbis is smaller in
> matroska than in ODD. It would be interresting to test wether it's also the case
> with Vorbis only. If so, that will be a good reason to push matroska in the
> hardware world as soon as possible, since ODD Vorbis is getting hardware support
> these days, I'm sure users would like to save a few more bytes (octets ;) on
> their players.
> 
> http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2131016,00.html?rtag=zdnetukhompage
> http://www.matroska.org

I am sorry Steve, but i dont agree here. We should have the highest 
respect of Monty's work on Vorbis, and if he as the main developer 
decided to make his own container for Vorbis ( dont forget, matroska was 
not available at that time ) thats ok with me.

Now, you will say whats wrong about offering the users the choice in 
what container they want to put their Vorbis streams, and i do agree 
with this point of view.

Having said that, the downside of doing so is that currently the old, 
outdated MP3 standard is still being used by most people, and not Vorbis 
! There are a couple of reasons for that, mainly
- people dont know about Ogg Vorbis
- people dont care, MP3 is fine for them
and, most important :
- !! Ogg Vorbis is not supported in most applications !!

Now, if we advertised to put Vorbis audio streams in matroska files 
instead of Ogg's, this would lead to

- confusion. Normal people dont know what a container is, and they arent 
interested either. As a result they would decide to go on using good old 
MP3, as its compression format and container in one and the same thing, 
as easy as it can get. Nobody will care about a few bytes less overhead.

- lack of interest from the hardware companies to add support for 
Vorbis. They would think that the opensource community is much to 
frequently changing, and fear the risk to fail with their development 
costs, so they prefer to support AAC/MPEG4 instead. This cant be our 
goal, not at all.

- anger from the Xiph people against our project. True, Emmett didnt 
treat us correctly, but he is just one person of a big, successful 
project, and these people are very dedicated and created an excellent 
audio codec, at least for lower bitrates. IMHO it would be a complete 
disrespect of their work if we critized their container publically and 
were trying to convince people to use matroska instead. UCI as an 
interface in standard vorbis.dll would stay nothing more than a dream then.


Now, video is a completely different subject of course !! I will fight 
hard to get hardware support for matroska, and i already tried to make 
contact with 2 companies ( KiSS and Neuston ) seeling DivX/MPEG4 capable 
units, but they werent interested in our current state of development at 
that time. Rest assured i will contact them again once we have working 
software to present ;).

I can see a few important aspects why hardware vendors could be very 
much interested to implement matroska in their standalones :

1. AVI sux. There are too many different applications creating 
non-spec-compliant AVI files, and there are simply too many hacks 
floating around, so its very unlikely those standalone units can play 
*ALL* AVI files fine. Sync is more than questionairy, although all of 
them claim they can support VBR MP3 also, and even multiple audios 
treams ( i doubt it ).

2. Subtitles : There is no subs specs for AVI, instead there are many 
different, completely incompatible subtitles formats floating around, 
sometimes even in the AVI file ( complete hack, breaking specs ) or as 
outside files with same file names and different extensions ... a pain 
in the a** to support for a hardware device.

3. DivX3 / Mode2 Form2 : All existing hardware players are based on the 
SIGMA EM 8500 decoder chip now, and this is a MPEG4 ISO implementation 
and cant deal with M$ MPEG4 V3, the basis for DivX3, so all DivX 3 
movies are unplayable.  -h  from the XviD team is already working on a 
converter to transcode MPEG4 V3 into MPEG4 ISO in a LOSSLESS process ( 
yes, this is possible, main code taken from ffmpeg.sf.net ), without 
reencoding, and we know that DivX Networks is doing the very same thing 
right now. Unfortunately, he mentioned that the files may be 5 - 15% 
bigger in the end, as there are some major differences between M$ MPEG4 
and ISO, and this will lead to bigger file sizes.
What seems to be a big disadvantage could turn out to be a big win-win 
situation for matroska, as mode 2 form 2 burning can offer 100 MB more 
on a normal CD ;) !!
In the end, i could see a situation where the hardware manufacturers 
will provide an DivX3/AVI to MPEG4/matroska converter tool with their 
players, so people can convert their DivX3 movies into something 
playable. Note that the service teams of these companies must have a 
hard time currently, trying to explain people why DivX3 is NOT DivX :-D !!

4. Missing Vorbis support : Vorbis in AVI is a no-no, the future of OGM 
is at least questionable ( also there are no docs for it ) and there is 
still no official announcement from Xiph people that Ogg Theora will 
support MPEG4 video and AC3 audio, being a must for the companies 
offering standalone units. So matroska is the obvious choice !!


I hope you dont mind me critizing you on a public ML, but as i know you 
are an open person and for sure you would do the same with me also :P

Regards

Christian

http://www.matroska.org



From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Tue Feb 25 14:43:16 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 14:43:16 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: OGG Vorbis  ( ;-) )
In-Reply-To: <3E5B652A.8070205@matroska.org>
References: <1046174117.3e5b59a5c3a2f@imp.free.fr> <3E5B652A.8070205@matroska.org>
Message-ID: <1046180596.3e5b72f46c25c@imp.free.fr>


En r?ponse ? Christian HJ Wiesner <chris at matroska.org>:

> I am sorry Steve, but i dont agree here. We should have the highest 
> respect of Monty's work on Vorbis, and if he as the main developer 
> decided to make his own container for Vorbis ( dont forget, matroska was
> not available at that time ) thats ok with me.

I never said I don't respect what they did. And I *do* respect them for their
work and dedication to what they do.
 
> Now, if we advertised to put Vorbis audio streams in matroska files 
> instead of Ogg's, this would lead to
> 
> - confusion. Normal people dont know what a container is, and they arent
> interested either. As a result they would decide to go on using good old
> MP3, as its compression format and container in one and the same thing,
> as easy as it can get. Nobody will care about a few bytes less
> overhead.

Well, if the tools on Windows are easier when matroska is used, they will prefer
that solution :)

> - lack of interest from the hardware companies to add support for 
> Vorbis. They would think that the opensource community is much to 
> frequently changing, and fear the risk to fail with their development 
> costs, so they prefer to support AAC/MPEG4 instead. This cant be our 
> goal, not at all.

Not only that, but the MPEG patent holder won't be happy if their investment
fail to succeed because of other alternatives. Only outsiders can succeed in
forcing an open standard in the hardware world. The big names will follow not to
lose market shares.

> - anger from the Xiph people against our project. True, Emmett didnt 
> treat us correctly, but he is just one person of a big, successful 
> project, and these people are very dedicated and created an excellent 
> audio codec, at least for lower bitrates. IMHO it would be a complete 
> disrespect of their work if we critized their container publically and
> were trying to convince people to use matroska instead. UCI as an 
> interface in standard vorbis.dll would stay nothing more than a dream
> then.

Uh ? libvorbis is free to use, they can't prevent anyone to use their code and
port it to UCI.
And if users choose to use matroska instead of OGG for their files there's no
reason to forbid that. 

You know my position on this for a long time. I think they should concentrate on
codec and streaming (OGG is good for that). Other applications like editing and
storing can be done in better ways.

> Now, video is a completely different subject of course !! I will fight
> hard to get hardware support for matroska, and i already tried to make
> contact with 2 companies ( KiSS and Neuston ) seeling DivX/MPEG4 capable
> units, but they werent interested in our current state of development at
> that time. Rest assured i will contact them again once we have working
> software to present ;).

As for DivX, MP3 (and Vorbis) we can only succeed if we get large support and
need from the users. That's when the commercial companies will be interrested.
 
> I can see a few important aspects why hardware vendors could be very 
> much interested to implement matroska in their standalones :
> 
> 3. DivX3 / Mode2 Form2 : All existing hardware players are based on the
> SIGMA EM 8500 decoder chip now, and this is a MPEG4 ISO implementation
> and cant deal with M$ MPEG4 V3, the basis for DivX3, so all DivX 3 
> movies are unplayable.  -h  from the XviD team is already working on a
> converter to transcode MPEG4 V3 into MPEG4 ISO in a LOSSLESS process (
> yes, this is possible, main code taken from ffmpeg.sf.net ), without 
> reencoding, and we know that DivX Networks is doing the very same thing
> right now. Unfortunately, he mentioned that the files may be 5 - 15% 
> bigger in the end, as there are some major differences between M$ MPEG4
> and ISO, and this will lead to bigger file sizes.
> What seems to be a big disadvantage could turn out to be a big win-win
> situation for matroska, as mode 2 form 2 burning can offer 100 MB more
> on a normal CD ;) !!
> In the end, i could see a situation where the hardware manufacturers 
> will provide an DivX3/AVI to MPEG4/matroska converter tool with their 
> players, so people can convert their DivX3 movies into something 
> playable. Note that the service teams of these companies must have a 
> hard time currently, trying to explain people why DivX3 is NOT DivX :-D
> !!

Good idea.
That's also a good oppurtunity to teach people to use open alternatives instead
of closed/restricted/unsupported ones. Matroska being built for the next 10
years, stable and documented is a very good point in our favour.

> 4. Missing Vorbis support : Vorbis in AVI is a no-no, the future of OGM
> is at least questionable ( also there are no docs for it ) and there is
> still no official announcement from Xiph people that Ogg Theora will 
> support MPEG4 video and AC3 audio, being a must for the companies 
> offering standalone units. So matroska is the obvious choice !!

Well, you don't have to think for a long time on this issue. It will never be
endorsed, since they are all for patent-free systems. Which I respect.

> I hope you dont mind me critizing you on a public ML, but as i know you
> are an open person and for sure you would do the same with me also :P

Yes, I hate you now !
;)
http://www.matroska.org



From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Tue Feb 25 16:25:45 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 16:25:45 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [matroska-general] Cue entries
Message-ID: <1046186745.3e5b8af99a6d1@imp.free.fr>


" <Pamel> How many bytes will each seek point likely take?"

Cue point average size (pessimistic case, yet minimal)
- keyframe : (2+1+4)+(2+1)+(1+1+1)+(1+1+4) = 19 octets
- P frame  : (2+1+4)+(2+1)+(1+1+1)+(1+1+4)+(2+1)+(1+1+4)+(1+1+4) = 34 octets
- B frame  : (2+1+4)+(2+1)+(1+1+1)+(1+1+4)+(2+1)+(1+1+4)+(1+1+4)+(1+1+4)+(1+1+4)
= 48 octets

As said on IRC, you could only have keyframes in the Cues entry if you want to
keep the size minimal.
http://www.matroska.org



From chris at matroska.org  Thu Feb 27 11:05:03 2003
From: chris at matroska.org (Christian HJ Wiesner)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 11:05:03 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Betreffend_MPEGanalizzatore_und_einem_Ein?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?satz_f=FCr_das_open_standard_container_Projek?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?t_=27matroska=27?=
Message-ID: <3E5DE2CF.6050701@matroska.org>



Hallo,

bitte erlauben Sie mir mich kurz vorzustellen, mein name ist Christian 
Wiesner, ich lebe in Bayern und mein Hobby ist die Video Kompression.

Zudem bin ich Projekt Administrator eines opensource Projektes mit Namen 
'matroska' ( http://www.matroska.org ). Unser Ziel ist es das gute alte 
AVI Container Format endg?ltig auf das Altenteil zu schicken, nachdem es 
  leider nicht erlaubt die meisten modernen VBR audio ( und auch video ) 
codecs wie z.B. Ogg Vorbis, FLAC, musepack, etc. zu muxen ohne dabei die 
AVI Spezifikationen zu verletzen.

Unsere matroska library, mit Namen 'libmatroska' ist in C++ gehalten und 
kurz vor der Fertigstellung, wir haben derzeit bereits funktionierende 
tools f?r

- Muxen f?r Linux
- Playback f?r Linux
- Muxen/editieren f?r Windows ( basierend auf Virtualdub )

In Planung, bzw. kurz vor der Fertigstellung sind

- Windows DirectShow parser
- Gstreamer Plugin
- file repair/optimierungs/mode2form2 tool  ( wird 800 MB auf einer 80 
Minuten CD erlauben, mit EDC/ECC auf file level )
- C library


Derzeit unterst?tzte codecs/Formate sind :

- DivX ( MPEG4 )
- XviD ( MPEG4 )
- alle VfW codecs ( im 'AVI Compatibility mode' )
- alle ACM codecs ( " )
- MP2/3
- AC3
- Vorbis
- MPC ( musepack )
- SRT ( subs )
- USF ( subs )

Geplant :

- MPEG1 video
- MPEG2 video
- DTS
- FLAC ( lossless PCM/WAV compressor )
- Speex
- MJPEG
- MJPEG2000
- Theora ( Ogg )
- Tarkin ( Ogg )
- SSA ( subs )
- ASS ( subs )
etc.

Es sind bis zu 255 Video, Audio und Subtitle streams/tracks in einem 
file m?glich, sync wird ?ber timestamps pr?zise garantiert. Zudem 
arbeiten wir an Men?f?hrung und Kapiteldefinition, ?hnlich derer in 
DVDs, aber alles in einem file ohne externe Verzeichnisstruktur.


Nach dieser Vorstellung unseres Projektes w?rde ich nun gerne zum Kern 
meiner email an Sie kommen :

Wie sie aus meiner Auflistung oben sehen k?nnen sind wir wild 
entschlossen auch MPEG1 und MPEG2 video tracks in unseren Container zu 
muxen. Ihr tool 'MPEGanalizzatore' wird uns dabei, nach unserer 
Einsch?tzung, wertvolle Dienste leisten k?nnen, da es die Struktur von 
MPEGs recht gut aufzeigt.

Wir wollten Sie daher fragen ob es m?glich w?re

1. f?r den Demuxing Prozess von bestehenden MPEG PS und TS files etvl. 
Hinweise auf gute sources von Ihnen zu bekommen ? Ist es denkbar da? Sie 
Teile Ihres sourcecodes f?r den demuxing Prozess von MPEGs herausgeben 
k?nnten ?

2. den einen oder anderen Hinweis von Ihnen zu bekommen auf was dabei zu 
achten ist ? Wir sind dabei eigene EBML Elemente f?r die GOPs zu 
definieren ( http://ebml.sf.net, eine binary Version von XML, das 
R?ckgrat von matroska f?r hohe Erweiterbarkeit f?r die Zukunft, ?hnlich 
den 'atoms' f?r MPEG4 ) um diese leicht und problemlos als level 1 
Elemente in matroska file speichern zu k?nnen, jedch sind wir uns 
bewusst da? das alleine wohl noch nicht die L?sung sein wird, gerade in 
Hinblick auf die vielen verschiedenen MPEG files. Wir w?rden, extra zu 
diesem Zweck, eine eigene mailing Liste kreieren um das Thema MPEG in 
matroska ausf?hrlich diskutieren zu k?nnen, und sie bitten sich dieser 
Liste anzuschliessen.

3. evtl. auch Hinweise auf vorhandenen source code zu bekommen die es 
uns erm?glichen w?rden die MPEG tracks in matroska files, f?r die 
Wiedergabe auf Windows PCs, in MPEG TS streams zu verwandeln so da? Sie 
?ber vorhandene DirectShow filter von Drittanbietern ( Cyberlink, 
Intervideo, Moonlight, etc. ) decodiert werden k?nnten.

Was meinen Sie dazu ?

Bitte entschuldigen Sie die lange email, ?ber eine kurze Antwort w?rde 
ich mich sehr freuen.

mfg

C. Wiesner

http://www.matroska.org



From chris at matroska.org  Fri Feb 28 09:33:38 2003
From: chris at matroska.org (Christian HJ Wiesner)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 09:33:38 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Porting Matroska to C
In-Reply-To: <20030228051814.41462.qmail@web14108.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20030228051814.41462.qmail@web14108.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3E5F1EE2.6020109@matroska.org>


Hi Animesh, Hi Shelly !

Animesh wrote:
> Oh yes! i guess i forgot to do a reply all :( 
> anyways, to update u, we r in synch and i wud be
> sending him the first cut of code sometime today.. in
> the meantime he has been working on an extended api
> set.. 

Good to hear you guys have synced !

Hmmm ... extended API .... Hmmm .... please dont forget to consult 
Moritz 'mosu' Bunkus here if you plan to make any major changes to 
Steve's original C API, as he will be very likely the one using it for 
the 'official' mplayer patch ( he has one already, but using the C++ lib 
), same goes to Ronald 'BBB' Bultje for the gstreamer plugin ( he 
prefers a C lib also IIRC ).

> u may soon be expecting something in the cvs.. prolly 
> the first cut which wud do the reading of ebml.. 
> Animesh.

Good news ! Does that mean you already have a working C port on your HDD 
that can do the basic EBML stuff ? Now that would be great, and beyond 
all my wildest expectations !!

In any case folks, please hear my advice :

* use the mailing lists more !!! *    :grin:

Communication is a very very important factor in an opensource project, 
otherwise there is a high risk of precious work made double or people 
getting pissed because they feel they are not being taken serious.

Dont be afraid to use the lists if you feel there is something the other 
folks should know about, thats what they are here for. We are a small 
team and only very few people are subscribed to our lists, so we can use 
them as we like to, without having to fear the project looses credibility.

I'd be very pleased if you guys could join in our IRC channel also by 
time, simply use chatzilla ( comes with mozilla, www.mozilla.org ) and 
enter '/server irc.corecodec.com' and '/join #matroska' , or use mIRC ( 
www.mirc.com ). Many important discussions and decisions are being done 
on there, so you shouldnt miss it being there from time to time. If you 
are caught behind a firewall and cant use port 6667, drop me a line, we 
find a solution.

Regards

Christian

>>Shailesh L Mistry wrote
>>>Hi Animesh and Santiago,
>>>Animesh, please can you tell me what stage you are
>>>at and what I need to do
>>>on this project.
>>>
>>>Shailesh

http://www.matroska.org



From rbultje at ronald.bitfreak.net  Fri Feb 28 13:01:04 2003
From: rbultje at ronald.bitfreak.net (Ronald Bultje)
Date: 28 Feb 2003 13:01:04 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Porting Matroska to C
In-Reply-To: <3E5F1EE2.6020109@matroska.org>
References: <20030228051814.41462.qmail@web14108.mail.yahoo.com>
	 <3E5F1EE2.6020109@matroska.org>
Message-ID: <1046433664.1413.1.camel@localhost.localdomain>


Hi Chris, Animesh, Shelly,

On Fri, 2003-02-28 at 09:33, Christian HJ Wiesner wrote:
> Hmmm ... extended API .... Hmmm .... please dont forget to consult 
> Moritz 'mosu' Bunkus here if you plan to make any major changes to 
> Steve's original C API, as he will be very likely the one using it for 
> the 'official' mplayer patch ( he has one already, but using the C++ lib 
> ), same goes to Ronald 'BBB' Bultje for the gstreamer plugin ( he 
> prefers a C lib also IIRC ).

C would be nice. Please keep me updated on this!

Ronald

-- 
Ronald Bultje <rbultje at ronald.bitfreak.net>
Linux Video/Multimedia developer

http://www.matroska.org



From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Fri Feb 28 10:51:53 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 10:51:53 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [matroska-general] Matroska in Adobe products / make Matroska a legal entity
Message-ID: <1046425913.3e5f3139e762e@imp.free.fr>


I just saw this news :
http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2003-02-27-008-26-NW-SW-DV

Adobe uses Qt to develop a public software. That means they are aware of the
QPl/GPL dual license and how to ask for another license for closed-source products.

Since we use the same license, it's legally possible that someday Adobe will
license libmatroska to us (to use in Adobe Premiere ?). That would be great.

BTW, that makes me think that we have to settle a legal organisation that will
collect founds and handle the licensing things around matroska. (library, logo,
etc). Christian and myself have no possibility to do this in the short term. Do
any of you feel confortable to do this ? We need a non profit organisation,
where Christian myself and this third person (and maybe others) will be running
the thing. I don't think the country where it will be settle is really
important. We just need something cheap... Or maybe a small company run in
Delaware (like CoreCodec) would do ?
http://www.matroska.org



From chris at matroska.org  Fri Feb 28 11:14:29 2003
From: chris at matroska.org (Christian HJ Wiesner)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 11:14:29 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Matroska in Adobe products / make Matroska
 a legal entity
In-Reply-To: <1046425913.3e5f3139e762e@imp.free.fr>
References: <1046425913.3e5f3139e762e@imp.free.fr>
Message-ID: <3E5F3685.4050405@matroska.org>


Steve Lhomme wrote:
> I just saw this news :
> http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2003-02-27-008-26-NW-SW-DV
> Adobe uses Qt to develop a public software. That means they are aware of the
> QPl/GP> Since we use the same license, it's legally possible that someday Adobe will
> license libmatroska to us (to use in Adobe Premiere ?). That would be great.
> L dual license and how to ask for another license for closed-source 
products.

Now that would be great, and we could maybe even raise some small funds 
to come up for the hosting cost of corecodec !!

> BTW, that makes me think that we have to settle a legal organisation that will
> collect founds and handle the licensing things around matroska. (library, logo,
> etc). Christian and myself have no possibility to do this in the short term. Do
> any of you feel confortable to do this ? We need a non profit organisation,
> where Christian myself and this third person (and maybe others) will be running
> the thing. I don't think the country where it will be settle is really
> important. We just need something cheap... Or maybe a small company run in
> Delaware (like CoreCodec) would do ?

There is a problem with founding a company like Corecodec Inc. :

A company is allowed to raise money and make profit, and if we consider 
founding matroska Inc. than everybody ( especially Xiph ) will shoot at 
us pretty quickly, trying to make other people believe we are trying to 
establish matroska as a standard now, to make money with it once it is 
widely used.

I clearly vote for a non-profit organisation, such as an Association. 
Here in Germany we can even expect support for such a non-profit 
organisation from the government, if you can prove to them that you are 
'serving the community' , like founding a medical service as a 
non-profit organisation, or the like.

Unfortunately the name would then be

matroska e.V.

( e.V. = eingetragener Verein = registered association )

and i fear nobody else in the world than Germans will understand what 
form of an entity we are, and this may cause problems if any company 
would decide to support matroska in their products.


I would consider to make the very same thing in France, that is to found

matroska association

( association = French equivalent to non-profit organisation ? )

Founding members could be

Steve LHomme
John Cannon ( only if he gets the MPEG muxer working :P )
Julien Coloos
Moritz Bunkus
Ludovic Vialle
Christian Wiesner

If anybody feels he wants to be in this list also, please reply here.

I could drive to Paris or Lyon easily to sign the foundation document if 
necessary, although i dont know if this is required for all founding 
members. Can somebody sitting in France find out for us please, as Steve 
and Cyrius are busy coding ? Ciler ? Oxy ?

My next thing to look at will be the protection of the matroska brand 
name and logos, to avoid any big company can simply steal our work and 
market it ( they had to rewrite the code, thats all ... its problematic 
to save the specs, as we dont have any things in there that could be 
patented, so anybody can 'ab'use them for his purposes ).

In fact i am digging into this further right now ....

Comments welcome, from anybody reading this list !!

Regards

Christian

http://www.matroska.org



From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Fri Feb 28 11:33:55 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 11:33:55 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Matroska in Adobe products / make Matroska a legal entity
In-Reply-To: <3E5F3685.4050405@matroska.org>
References: <1046425913.3e5f3139e762e@imp.free.fr> <3E5F3685.4050405@matroska.org>
Message-ID: <1046428435.3e5f3b1383f9f@imp.free.fr>


En r?ponse ? Christian HJ Wiesner <chris at matroska.org>:

> There is a problem with founding a company like Corecodec Inc. :
> 
> A company is allowed to raise money and make profit, and if we consider
> founding matroska Inc. than everybody ( especially Xiph ) will shoot at
> us pretty quickly, trying to make other people believe we are trying to
> establish matroska as a standard now, to make money with it once it is
> widely used.

Well, AFAIK Xiph signs NDA even though they are a non-profit organisation. so
the difference is very thin. They make business the same way as a company
(selling a special version of their sources). The thing is that with a non
profit org, we cannot develop all the things we want, the way we want.

My point of view on the future of our work, is that I'd like to get enough money
to pay a few of us to continue develop and expand our scope of development (UCI,
porting to other architectures, MPC work, VDubMod support of more Matroska
eatures, I also have other multimedia projects in mind). But still making the
sources available for free to use in open softwares (the QPL philosophy). I'm
not sure a non profit org can do that... Even though that's exactly what
Xiphophorus does.
 
> I clearly vote for a non-profit organisation, such as an Association. 
> Here in Germany we can even expect support for such a non-profit 
> organisation from the government, if you can prove to them that you are
> 'serving the community' , like founding a medical service as a 
> non-profit organisation, or the like.

Well, yes, this could be a good/fair source of funding.

> Unfortunately the name would then be
> 
> matroska e.V.
> 
> ( e.V. = eingetragener Verein = registered association )
> 
> and i fear nobody else in the world than Germans will understand what 
> form of an entity we are, and this may cause problems if any company 
> would decide to support matroska in their products.

I don't think it really matters. We could call it matroska.org a suffix won't
hurt much.

> I would consider to make the very same thing in France, that is to
> found
> 
> matroska association
> 
> ( association = French equivalent to non-profit organisation ? )

Yes. We don't have to put Association in the name AFAIK.

> Founding members could be
> 
> Steve LHomme
> John Cannon ( only if he gets the MPEG muxer working :P )
> Julien Coloos
> Moritz Bunkus
> Ludovic Vialle
> Christian Wiesner
> 
> If anybody feels he wants to be in this list also, please reply here.
> 
> I could drive to Paris or Lyon easily to sign the foundation document if
> necessary, although i dont know if this is required for all founding 
> members. Can somebody sitting in France find out for us please, as Steve
> and Cyrius are busy coding ? Ciler ? Oxy ?

Or maybe Ludovic, is back in metropolitan France soon and will probably be
unemployed for some time. We could all go to Toulouse (south of France) for the
launch :) But well, he already runs CoreCodec Inc so maybe there would be a
conflict of interrests (or blur).

> My next thing to look at will be the protection of the matroska brand 
> name and logos, to avoid any big company can simply steal our work and
> market it ( they had to rewrite the code, thats all ... its problematic
> to save the specs, as we dont have any things in there that could be 
> patented, so anybody can 'ab'use them for his purposes ).

That's one part I'm not sure a non profit organisation can do.

> Comments welcome, from anybody reading this list !!

idem
http://www.matroska.org



From chris at matroska.org  Fri Feb 28 12:13:07 2003
From: chris at matroska.org (Christian HJ Wiesner)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:13:07 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Matroska in Adobe products / make Matroska
 a legal entity
In-Reply-To: <1046428435.3e5f3b1383f9f@imp.free.fr>
References: <1046425913.3e5f3139e762e@imp.free.fr> <3E5F3685.4050405@matroska.org> <1046428435.3e5f3b1383f9f@imp.free.fr>
Message-ID: <3E5F4443.1090504@matroska.org>


Steve,

Steve Lhomme wrote:
> En r?ponse ? Christian HJ Wiesner <chris at matroska.org>:
>>There is a problem with founding a company like Corecodec Inc. :
>>A company is allowed to raise money and make profit, and if we consider
>>founding matroska Inc. than everybody ( especially Xiph ) will shoot at
>>us pretty quickly, trying to make other people believe we are trying to
>>establish matroska as a standard now, to make money with it once it is
>>widely used.
> Well, AFAIK Xiph signs NDA even though they are a non-profit organisation. so
> the difference is very thin. They make business the same way as a company
> (selling a special version of their sources). The thing is that with a non
> profit org, we cannot develop all the things we want, the way we want.

for your understanding, being a non-profit organisation does *not* mean 
you are not allowed to sell goods or services, or to request money for 
them ! The only very important difference to a real company is ( AFAIK ) 
that you
- cant pay dividends to investors or founders. All the money raised in 
the organisation has to stay within. This makes it *very* unattractive 
for sponsors to participate in such an organisation .. lol
- cant sell the organisation itself to anybody, and this includes all 
stuff belonging to it ( can be houses, furniture, PCs, etc. ).


> My point of view on the future of our work, is that I'd like to get enough money
> to pay a few of us to continue develop and expand our scope of development (UCI,
> porting to other architectures, MPC work, VDubMod support of more Matroska
> eatures, I also have other multimedia projects in mind). But still making the
> sources available for free to use in open softwares (the QPL philosophy). I'm
> not sure a non profit org can do that... Even though that's exactly what
> Xiphophorus does.

Again, non-profit organisations *can* employ people and pay them 
salaries ! So, in principal we *could* employ you, Cyrius, Ludovic, 
Mosu, Frank, etc as developers to 'support' the spreading of matroska. 
We could also employ John Cannon as your secretary, writing your letters 
:P ....

>>I clearly vote for a non-profit organisation, such as an Association. 
>>Here in Germany we can even expect support for such a non-profit 
>>organisation from the government, if you can prove to them that you are
>>'serving the community' , like founding a medical service as a 
>>non-profit organisation, or the like.
> Well, yes, this could be a good/fair source of funding.

But admittedly it will be hard to convince the German government that 
writing a software is serving the community ;) ...

>>Unfortunately the name would then be
>>matroska e.V.
>>( e.V. = eingetragener Verein = registered association )
>>and i fear nobody else in the world than Germans will understand what 
>>form of an entity we are, and this may cause problems if any company 
>>would decide to support matroska in their products.
> 
> I don't think it really matters. We could call it matroska.org a suffix won't
> hurt much.

If you think it doestn matter, and everybody agrees, i can try to find 
out in parallel to Ciler's investigations about founding the 
organisation in Germany.

>>I would consider to make the very same thing in France, that is to
>>found
>>matroska association
>>( association = French equivalent to non-profit organisation ? )
> Yes. We don't have to put Association in the name AFAIK.
> 
> 
>>Founding members could be
>>
>>Steve LHomme
>>John Cannon ( only if he gets the MPEG muxer working :P )
>>Julien Coloos
>>Moritz Bunkus
>>Ludovic Vialle
>>Christian Wiesner
>>If anybody feels he wants to be in this list also, please reply here.
>>I could drive to Paris or Lyon easily to sign the foundation document if
>>necessary, although i dont know if this is required for all founding 
>>members. Can somebody sitting in France find out for us please, as Steve
>>and Cyrius are busy coding ? Ciler ? Oxy ?
> Or maybe Ludovic, is back in metropolitan France soon and will probably be
> unemployed for some time. We could all go to Toulouse (south of France) for the
> launch :) But well, he already runs CoreCodec Inc so maybe there would be a
> conflict of interrests (or blur).

Toulouse !! Nice !! Eating good fish and the like ! I was asking 
Blacksun today if he could maybe ask his GF to dig out some info for us, 
but he didnt reply ;)

>>My next thing to look at will be the protection of the matroska brand 
>>name and logos, to avoid any big company can simply steal our work and
>>market it ( they had to rewrite the code, thats all ... its problematic
>>to save the specs, as we dont have any things in there that could be 
>>patented, so anybody can 'ab'use them for his purposes ). 
>
> That's one part I'm not sure a non profit organisation can do.

Hmmm ... correct, that may be difficult. On the other hand, big 
non-profit organisations like the Red Cross do have their signs 
protected also, so it should be possible ?

Christian

http://www.matroska.org



From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Fri Feb 28 12:27:32 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:27:32 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Matroska in Adobe products / make Matroska a legal entity
In-Reply-To: <3E5F4443.1090504@matroska.org>
References: <1046425913.3e5f3139e762e@imp.free.fr> <3E5F3685.4050405@matroska.org> <1046428435.3e5f3b1383f9f@imp.free.fr> <3E5F4443.1090504@matroska.org>
Message-ID: <1046431652.3e5f47a4d02c5@imp.free.fr>


En r?ponse ? Christian HJ Wiesner <chris at matroska.org>:

> for your understanding, being a non-profit organisation does *not* mean
> you are not allowed to sell goods or services, or to request money for
> them ! The only very important difference to a real company is ( AFAIK )
> that you
> - cant pay dividends to investors or founders. All the money raised in
> the organisation has to stay within. This makes it *very* unattractive
> for sponsors to participate in such an organisation .. lol
> - cant sell the organisation itself to anybody, and this includes all 
> stuff belonging to it ( can be houses, furniture, PCs, etc. ).
 
Oh, I never thought about that. This all looks good to me.
 
> Again, non-profit organisations *can* employ people and pay them 
> salaries ! So, in principal we *could* employ you, Cyrius, Ludovic, 
> Mosu, Frank, etc as developers to 'support' the spreading of matroska.

Yes, that's correct. My brother used to work for a non profit organisation.
 
> > Well, yes, this could be a good/fair source of funding.
> 
> But admittedly it will be hard to convince the German government that 
> writing a software is serving the community ;) ...

Well, mentality may change with time. That's just a possibility. After all the
german government is helping Suse (by using/buying it) and the french government
is helping Mandrake the same way. Of course the multimedia world will be less
important for the community.
 
> > I don't think it really matters. We could call it matroska.org a
> suffix won't
> > hurt much.
> 
> If you think it doestn matter, and everybody agrees, i can try to find
> out in parallel to Ciler's investigations about founding the 
> organisation in Germany.

Yes, and actually a German association may look more "professional" and serious
than a french one. It's just a matter of psychology ;) And there is more
multimedia business in Germany than in France, at least in the music development.
 
> > Or maybe Ludovic, is back in metropolitan France soon and will
> probably be
> > unemployed for some time. We could all go to Toulouse (south of
> France) for the
> > launch :) But well, he already runs CoreCodec Inc so maybe there would
> be a
> > conflict of interrests (or blur).
> 
> Toulouse !! Nice !! Eating good fish and the like ! I was asking 
> Blacksun today if he could maybe ask his GF to dig out some info for us,
> but he didnt reply ;)

His GF is in La Rochelle (atlantic coast), not in Toulouse.
 
> >>patented, so anybody can 'ab'use them for his purposes ). 
> >
> > That's one part I'm not sure a non profit organisation can do.
> 
> Hmmm ... correct, that may be difficult. On the other hand, big 
> non-profit organisations like the Red Cross do have their signs 
> protected also, so it should be possible ?

Yes, it can probably work.
http://www.matroska.org



From chris at matroska.org  Fri Feb 28 12:46:35 2003
From: chris at matroska.org (Christian HJ Wiesner)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:46:35 +0100
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Matroska in Adobe products / make Matroska
 a legal entity
In-Reply-To: <3E5F3685.4050405@matroska.org>
References: <1046425913.3e5f3139e762e@imp.free.fr> <3E5F3685.4050405@matroska.org>
Message-ID: <3E5F4C1B.9010202@matroska.org>


Christian HJ Wiesner wrote:
> My next thing to look at will be the protection of the matroska brand 
> name and logos, to avoid any big company can simply steal our work and 
> market it ( they had to rewrite the code, thats all ... its problematic 
> to save the specs, as we dont have any things in there that could be 
> patented, so anybody can 'ab'use them for his purposes ).
> In fact i am digging into this further right now ....
> Christian

This is what i found :

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/tac/doc/basic/appcontent.htm#AppName

[quote]NAME OF THE APPLICANT
The application must be filed in the name of the owner of the mark. The 
owner of the mark is the person or entity who controls the nature and 
quality of the goods identified by the mark and/or the services rendered 
in connection with the mark. The owner may be an individual, 
corporation, partnership, or other type of legal entity.
Do I have to be a U.S. citizen to apply?
No. However, if you do not reside in the United States, you must appoint 
a "domestic representative" as part of the application process (see 
below).[/quote]

Good. That means, we had to have a 'domestic representative' to be able 
to register the matroska trademark in the States. Dan ? Paul ? Jon ? John ?

[quote]APPLICATION FILING FEE
Currently, the filing fee for a trademark application is $325 per class 
of goods/services. However, effective January 1, 2003, that fee will be 
increased to *$335.00* per class of goods/services. Additionally, the 
fee for amending an existing application to add an additional class or 
classes of goods/services will be $335.00 per class, for classes added 
on or after January 1, 2003. For a listing of classes, see International 
Schedule of Classes of Goods and Services. Fee increases, when 
necessary, usually take effect on October 1 of any given year. Please 
call 1-800-PT0-9199 for up-to-date fee information.[/quote]

325,- US$ ! And thats only the US .. i wonder what the EU will charge ...


And here is Germany :

http://www.dpma.de/infos/faq/faqm.html#mar1

[quote]Welche Geb?hren sind zu entrichten?
Die Geb?hren setzen sich aus der Anmeldegeb?hr und ggf. den 
Klassengeb?hren f?r die benannten Waren- oder Dienstleistungsklassen 
zusammen. Die Anmeldegeb?hr beinhaltet die Geb?hr f?r drei Waren- oder 
Dienstleistungsklassen. Sie betr?gt *EUR 300*. Ab der vierten benannten 
Klasse ist f?r jede weitere Waren- oder Dienstleistungsklasse eine 
Geb?hr von EUR 100 zu zahlen. Die Anmelde- und Klassengeb?hren sind mit 
der Antragstellung zu entrichten. N?heres entnehmen Sie bitte dem 
Kostenmerkblatt.[/quote]

300,- ? !! This is for 10 years, and can be prolongued then ....


If we have similar fees for

USA
Germany
France
Japan
China

we have a serious financing problem guys :( ....

Any comments ?

Christian

http://www.matroska.org



From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Fri Feb 28 14:19:43 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 14:19:43 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Matroska in Adobe products / make Matroska a legal entity
In-Reply-To: <3E5F4C1B.9010202@matroska.org>
References: <1046425913.3e5f3139e762e@imp.free.fr> <3E5F3685.4050405@matroska.org> <3E5F4C1B.9010202@matroska.org>
Message-ID: <1046438383.3e5f61ef4b7ef@imp.free.fr>


En r?ponse ? Christian HJ Wiesner <chris at matroska.org>:

> 300,- ? !! This is for 10 years, and can be prolongued then ....
> 
> 
> If we have similar fees for
> 
> USA
> Germany
> France
> Japan
> China
> 
> we have a serious financing problem guys :( ....
> 
> Any comments ?

I think you can already drop the China one. But instead there should probably be
the UK (funny I don't know much developpers from there). These are the places
where most of the business take place.

I suggest we "secure" the name where we'll establish the associtation. That's
the minimum. And then as we get (maybe someday) money, we can protect the
name/logo in other places. The USA should probably next in the list (if the
association is there).

The idea of protecting the name, is that noone can make business with the name
matroska (in the same field of activity) if we don't agree with them. So the USA
is probably the most important "market" that no developper/company would want to
be inaccessible...

Since most of us don't have a decent regular income, I think Christian and I
will probably have to pay for the beggining (association settlement, one or 2
trademark protection). Others who have a decent income are encouraged to help
(not immediatly of course).

BTW, that makes me think that we'll have to settle a paypal account and a bank
account. Paypal can't be considered as a bank here, I think. Maybe in the US, it
can. I don't know. That should also be an important point for choosing the
location of the association.
http://www.matroska.org



From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Fri Feb 28 14:45:30 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 14:45:30 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Matroska in Adobe products / make Matroska a legal entity
In-Reply-To: <1046438383.3e5f61ef4b7ef@imp.free.fr>
References: <1046425913.3e5f3139e762e@imp.free.fr> <3E5F3685.4050405@matroska.org> <3E5F4C1B.9010202@matroska.org> <1046438383.3e5f61ef4b7ef@imp.free.fr>
Message-ID: <1046439930.3e5f67faa40a6@imp.free.fr>


En r?ponse ? Steve Lhomme <steve.lhomme at free.fr>:

> 
> En r?ponse ? Christian HJ Wiesner <chris at matroska.org>:
> 
> > 300,- ? !! This is for 10 years, and can be prolongued then ....

This is 215 ? in France for three classes (38? each more). And it also lasts 10
years.

http://www.inpi.fr/inpi/html/infoprat/cout/depmarque.htm

A class is a type of product covered. We will probably need :
Class 9 : measurement instruments, sound and video reproduction, computers, etc
Class 15: music instruments
Class 35 (optional) : advertisment, document management, etc
Class 38: telecom, computer network, etc
Class 41: education, entertainment, video renting, electronic books, etc
Class 42: computer science, R&D, digital conversions, etc

That would make 5 or 6 classes (295 ? or 333 ?).

http://www.inpi.fr/inpi/acrobat/formulaires/ma33.pdf

It covers the name, the logo, colours, sounds (!)
http://www.matroska.org



From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Fri Feb 28 17:39:58 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 17:39:58 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Matroska in Adobe products / make Matroska a legal entity
In-Reply-To: <1046439930.3e5f67faa40a6@imp.free.fr>
References: <1046425913.3e5f3139e762e@imp.free.fr> <3E5F3685.4050405@matroska.org> <3E5F4C1B.9010202@matroska.org> <1046438383.3e5f61ef4b7ef@imp.free.fr> <1046439930.3e5f67faa40a6@imp.free.fr>
Message-ID: <1046450398.3e5f90dea3ddf@imp.free.fr>


More information on how to create a non-lucrative association in France :

http://www.fraternet.org/V5/aid/accueil.php
http://www.fraternet.org/V5/aid/assoc-droit/telech/index.php
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/association.1901/main/index.htm
http://www.vie-associative.gouv.fr/ (governement site)
http://www.guidon.asso.fr/

They clearly say that the name of the association can be protected :
http://www.fraternet.org/V5/aid/comm/dossier/proteger_nom.php
http://www.matroska.org



From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Fri Feb 28 15:14:21 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 15:14:21 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [matroska-general] New japanese help proposition
Message-ID: <1046441661.3e5f6ebd41fef@imp.free.fr>


I've received a PM on CoreCodec.com :

"I've read about alpha-testing of Matroska on http://www.faireal.net/

I'm Japanese and live in Japan, using Win2k-JP.I encode some DVD's into XviD +
Vorbis, and currently using OGM.But current OggDSF has so many bugs so I was
searching for another Media container, and Matroska really interested me

What I can do are:
read and write C, C++, Java(a little)
encode movies
decode check
and ....?

I'm not sure whether Matroska's concept works well currently because of CPU
power, but I believe it's worth testing
I want to be a alpha-tester, how can I be?

Thank you."

"I also can translate Matroska project page into Japanese(though sometimes my
translation's not accurate), and started working on translating
http://matroska.org/"

Here is my reply :
"Hello jpny !

Thanx for the offer !

We do look for people using Unicode dependant OSes (like japanese or chinese
ones) that would be able to test our code and make necessary changes.

So your help is highly welcomed and appreciated.

Translating the website could also be interresting if you think other japanese
developpers (or more general users) would like/need it.

About the CPU power, there is a working version of VirtualModDub that can output
matroska files, and it's much faster than OGM


Things to do to integrate you in the team :
- get a Sourceforge account (if you don't have one already)
- give me your nickname there so that you can get write access to the CVS (I
hope you know how to use it)

How to discuss technical things :
- send an email to matroska-devel at freelists.org (you can subscribe from there)
- send a message to NNTP (newsgroup news.gmane.org)
gmane.comp.multimedia.matroska.devel (it will be sent to the mailing lis too and
vice versa)
- join us on IRC irc.corecodec.com on channel #matroska

You can reply to this message on the mailing list, so that other people can know
about you and help you :)"
http://www.matroska.org



From Liisachan at faireal.net  Fri Feb 28 16:17:08 2003
From: Liisachan at faireal.net (Liisachan)
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 00:17:08 +0900
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: New japanese help proposition
In-Reply-To: <1046441661.3e5f6ebd41fef@imp.free.fr>
References: <1046441661.3e5f6ebd41fef@imp.free.fr>
Message-ID: <3E5F7D74.6060701@faireal.net>


Steve Lhomme wrote:

>I've received a PM on CoreCodec.com :
>
>"I've read about alpha-testing of Matroska on http://www.faireal.net/
>

Surprise surprise... it s my site!

I guess now I have  the "I know what I'm advertising about" mark too ;)

Liisachan

http://www.matroska.org



From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Fri Feb 28 16:32:50 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 16:32:50 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [matroska-general] Re: New japanese help proposition
In-Reply-To: <3E5F7D74.6060701@faireal.net>
References: <1046441661.3e5f6ebd41fef@imp.free.fr> <3E5F7D74.6060701@faireal.net>
Message-ID: <1046446370.3e5f8122d6693@imp.free.fr>


En r?ponse ? Liisachan <Liisachan at faireal.net>:

> 
> Steve Lhomme wrote:
> 
> >I've received a PM on CoreCodec.com :
> >
> >"I've read about alpha-testing of Matroska on http://www.faireal.net/
> >
> 
> Surprise surprise... it s my site!
> 
> I guess now I have  the "I know what I'm advertising about" mark too
> ;)
> 
> Liisachan

Yeah, you might be the seed that might make Matroska popular in Japan :)
http://www.matroska.org