From chris at matroska.org  Mon Dec  1 09:22:47 2003
From: chris at matroska.org (Christian HJ Wiesner)
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 09:22:47 +0100
Subject: [Matroska-general] New sample files uploaded
Message-ID: <3FCAFA57.30100@matroska.org>


More to be found here :

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=405822#post405822

The FTP server of free.fr is i a big riddle to me .... maybe i am just 
too impatient :P



From moritz at bunkus.org  Mon Dec  1 09:50:53 2003
From: moritz at bunkus.org (Moritz Bunkus)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 09:50:53 +0100
Subject: [Matroska-general] New sample files uploaded
In-Reply-To: <3FCAFA57.30100@matroska.org>
References: <3FCAFA57.30100@matroska.org>
Message-ID: <20031201085053.GI19712@bunkus.org>

Hi,

> The FTP server of free.fr is i a big riddle to me .... maybe i am just 
> too impatient :P

It's entirely possible that although the files are deleted instantly
the free space is not updated instantly. Wait a couple of hours, try
again.

-- 
 ==> Ciao, Mosu (Moritz Bunkus)


From chris at wiesneronline.net  Mon Dec  1 10:48:19 2003
From: chris at wiesneronline.net (Christian HJ Wiesner)
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 10:48:19 +0100
Subject: [Matroska-general] New sample files uploaded
In-Reply-To: <20031201085053.GI19712@bunkus.org>
References: <3FCAFA57.30100@matroska.org> <20031201085053.GI19712@bunkus.org>
Message-ID: <3FCB0E63.7080900@wiesneronline.net>

Moritz Bunkus wrote:

>>The FTP server of free.fr is i a big riddle to me .... maybe i am just 
>>too impatient :P
>>    
>>
>It's entirely possible that although the files are deleted instantly
>the free space is not updated instantly. Wait a couple of hours, try
>again.
>  
>
Thats what i did already, i am trying since 2 AM last night, makes 9 
hours meanwhile, but to no avail :-/ ...

The strange thing is, if i connect with my FTP client it says some thing 
like 'quota : '27,000,000.0000 octet used out of 100 MO' . I assume MO 
is MegaOctet, and this means that only 27 MB from 100 MB are being used. 
I'd appreciate any help on this ....
Christian




From moritz at bunkus.org  Wed Dec  3 00:26:06 2003
From: moritz at bunkus.org (Moritz Bunkus)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 00:26:06 +0100
Subject: [Matroska-general] mkvtoolnix 0.7.8 released
Message-ID: <20031202232606.GA31934@bunkus.org>

Hi mailing lists & package maintainers,

I've just released a new version of mkvtoolnix, 0.7.8. A couple of bug
fixes, some new features. The URLs:

Homepage:
http://www.bunkus.org/videotools/mkvtoolnix/
Sources:
http://www.bunkus.org/videotools/mkvtoolnix/sources/mkvtoolnix-0.7.8.tar.bz2
Windows binaries:
http://www.bunkus.org/videotools/mkvtoolnix/win32/mkvtoolnix-0.7.8.rar

Here's the ChangeLog since 0.7.7:
----------------------------------
2003-12-02  Moritz Bunkus  <moritz at bunkus.org>

	* Released v0.7.8.

	* mmg: new feature: You can set the values for the language and/or
	country codes for a chapter and all its children with the push of
	one button (the new "Set values" button).

	* mmg: new feature: You can set default values for the language
	and the country codes in the chapter editor (Chapter menu -> Set
	default values).

2003-12-01  Moritz Bunkus  <moritz at bunkus.org>

	* mkvmerge: bug fix: Display dimensions were sometimes off by one,
	e.g. 640x479 instead of 640x480. This should not happen anymore
	for sane pixel dimensions.

	* mkvmerge: Changed the options '--fourcc' and
	'--aspect-ratio'. They now take a track ID just like all the other
	track specific options.

	* mkvmerge: new feature: Added an option '--display-dimensions'
	which allows the direct setting of the display dimensions. It is
	mutually exclusive with '--aspect-ratio', of course.

2003-11-29  Moritz Bunkus  <moritz at bunkus.org>

	* mmg: bug fix: The language combo box was not correctly set on
	Windows.

2003-11-25  Moritz Bunkus  <moritz at bunkus.org>

	* mkvmerge: Added an option for dumpig all split points including
	file size and timestamp information after the first splitting
	pass.

2003-11-23  Moritz Bunkus  <moritz at bunkus.org>

	* mmg: bug fix: Quotes were missing if the timecode file's name
	contained spaces.

2003-11-18  Moritz Bunkus  <moritz at bunkus.org>

	* mkvmerge: Rewrote the SPU packet parsing code. It should not
	abort anymore.

	* everything: Committed a lot of cross-OS compatibility fixes
	(thanks to Haali and thedj).
--------------------------------

Have fun.

-- 
 ==> Ciao, Mosu (Moritz Bunkus)


From chris at matroska.org  Wed Dec  3 23:33:48 2003
From: chris at matroska.org (Christian HJ Wiesner)
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 23:33:48 +0100
Subject: [Matroska-general] News entry
Message-ID: <3FCE64CC.6010606@matroska.org>

HI,

i could finally, after a much too long time admittedly, update the news 
page :

http://cvs.corecodec.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/*checkout*/matroska/doc/website/news/index.html

A Loooong entry :-) !

Regards

Christian



From S.Lhomme at NEOPOST.FR  Thu Dec  4 14:40:02 2003
From: S.Lhomme at NEOPOST.FR (Lhomme Steve)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:40:02 +0100 
Subject: [Matroska-general] Re: I see a MAJOR issue coming....
Message-ID: <B72964E1ABB3D311B92900508B8B2115037DF276@NTCOM>

(I hope it will make it into the list)

For some of the problems you mention that are solutions. The major problem
is getting a software that can play Matroska files according to the latest
specs (see the latest lacing system).

For the codec, I think there is a feature that noone is using yet : a URL to
download the right codec or to get information about the codec. Maybe
authoring tools should use that, as well as mkvinfo and the shell extension.
Later, players could support that too using DirectShow or their internal
stuff (VLC, MPlayer).

About Chris's example, I see it as a technology preview, not something
everyone is able to play out of the box.

The format is still not 1.0 and not all features are currently supported by
all players... So until then nothing will be easy for everyone.

About the package thing, there are some things we can't distribute for legal
reasons. And what you propose is OS specific and has been rejected a long
time ago...

Actually the URL for the codec is also OS specific, and we hoped to have
Transors and a site about codecs to support this. But none of that is done
now.

Finally I think that we should not say too much that Matroska is ready for
everyone. It is not until all 3 players support well all the features
(DirectShow + our interfaces, VLC, MPlayer). And it's with these people that
we have to improve our work. Once this is the case, we can say everyone that
they can choose whatever player they want and all Matroska features will be
there.


From H.NS.Duden at gmx.net  Thu Dec  4 19:42:49 2003
From: H.NS.Duden at gmx.net (Hauke Duden)
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 19:42:49 +0100
Subject: [Matroska-general] Matroska in closed source products
Message-ID: <bqnv5d$ptq$1@sea.gmane.org>

Hello all,

I'm currently evaluating on whether we will include Matroska support in 
our free - but closed source - media player (Ashampoo Media Player+).

However, it seems that this is not possible with either of the two 
licenses you offer for your libraries. The GPL is of course not an 
option for closed source programs. And I'm not too familiar with the 
QPL, but it seems to me that it also requires applications using the 
libraries to be open-sourced.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the following part of the license 
seems to make that pretty clear:

"""
6. You may develop application programs, reusable components and other
software items that link with the original or modified versions of the 
   Software.  These items, when distributed, are subject to the 
following    requirements:
<snip>
      b. You must explicitly license all recipients of your items to use
         and re-distribute original and modified versions of the items in
         both machine-executable and source code forms.
<snip>
"""

If I understand this correctly, then "items" refers to application 
programs using the matroska libs and 6.b requires those to be open source.

However, I have seen commercial players with Matroska support. Have 
these programs implemented their own Matroska libraries from your specs 
or is there some aspect to this license that I don't understand?

Thanks for any insights,

	Hauke Duden





From chris at matroska.org  Thu Dec  4 22:48:40 2003
From: chris at matroska.org (Christian HJ Wiesner)
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 22:48:40 +0100
Subject: [Matroska-general] Matroska in closed source products
In-Reply-To: <bqnv5d$ptq$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <bqnv5d$ptq$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <3FCFABB8.4030203@matroska.org>

Hauke Duden wrote:

> Hello all,
> I'm currently evaluating on whether we will include Matroska support 
> in our free - but closed source - media player (Ashampoo Media Player+).
> However, it seems that this is not possible with either of the two 
> licenses you offer for your libraries. The GPL is of course not an 
> option for closed source programs. And I'm not too familiar with the 
> QPL, but it seems to me that it also requires applications using the 
> libraries to be open-sourced.
> Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the following part of the license 
> seems to make that pretty clear:
>
> """
> 6. You may develop application programs, reusable components and other
> software items that link with the original or modified versions of the 
>   Software.  These items, when distributed, are subject to the 
> following    requirements:
> <snip>
>      b. You must explicitly license all recipients of your items to use
>         and re-distribute original and modified versions of the items in
>         both machine-executable and source code forms.
> <snip>
> """
>
> If I understand this correctly, then "items" refers to application 
> programs using the matroska libs and 6.b requires those to be open 
> source.
> However, I have seen commercial players with Matroska support. Have 
> these programs implemented their own Matroska libraries from your 
> specs or is there some aspect to this license that I don't understand?
> Thanks for any insights,
>     Hauke Duden


Hi Hauke,

thanks for your interest in supporting matroska in Ashampoo+ . You were 
reading the license right, libmatroska/libebml are currently QPL/GPL 
dual license, and both are opensource licenses that require that the 
application which includes them, either as a part of the source code or 
via statical linking, are opensource themselves.

However, you have to understand that the main reason for not giving the 
libraries away to anybody with a much weaker license form, is not 
because we dont want matroska to be supported in closed source apps, but 
because in the present situation of the project we want to have as much 
control as possible on apps that are CREATING matroska files, to avoid 
incompatibilities and frustration of the users, at least until the 
format has become widely adopted.

For playback we dont have such intentions, but its hard to split 
libmatroska and libebml in a 'read-only' version, and also this would 
make it more difficult to maintain, so we havent doen that nor do we 
have any intentions to do it. But there are a couple of workarounds we 
would like to point you to, to make sure that matroska will finally be 
supported in your product ( thats the goal ) :

1. Plugin System : The most easiest way to overcome the opensource 
problem is via a player specific 'plugin' . To achieve that, you have to 
design your player such that it supports playback plugins, and then you 
make a matroska specific plugin and release the sourcecode for the 
plugin itself as either GPL or QPL, or both. The most used 'plugin 
system' if of course Microsoft DirectShow itself, and most of the 
commercial player you saw supporting matroska, were obviously DirectShow 
based and using the opensource matroska splitter filter to support the 
basic format playback. 'The Core Media Player ( TCMP )' for example, in 
addition to the matroska DirectShow parser filter, has a so-called 'CDL' 
to be able to read more specific data like tags etc. from matroska 
files, which is not possible via DirectShow. Again, the CDL plugin 
itself is using libmatroska/libebml and is opensource, while the rest of 
the player is not. Please note that thansk to a new interface that was 
added to the matroska DirectShow parser filter by Toff, some of the more 
advanced things than just basic playback are now even possible via 
DirectShow, please PING me if you need a link to the documentation of 
the interface.

2. New C library from BBB : Ronald 'BBB' Bultje has made a new library 
in C, not C++ like libmatroska/libebml, so that maybe one day matroska 
may get supported in FFMPEG/libavformat. The license for this library is 
L-GPL, so this allows use in closed source programs also, as long as you 
make the code for the library itself available, and even via a link in 
your documentation. This code can not be found in the matroska CVS, its 
currently in the Gstreamer CVS ( http://gstreamer.net ) and used in the 
matroska plugin for gstreamer. Its currently playback only, but should 
be ideal for your purpose, even if some of the more advanced features of 
matroska are not implemented yet.

3. If 2. is no option for you, and you absolutely cant build matroska 
support based on a plugin, then as a last option we might be able to 
license you on the code. We already have such a request from another 
closed source program, and are admittedly a bit late in getting a proper 
license agreement into a written form, and signed by all developers 
involved in the making of the 2 libs.

I hope this shows you a couple of options, looking forward to hear from 
you about what option may be best for your situation.

Best regards

Christian
matroska project admin







From rbultje at ronald.bitfreak.net  Thu Dec  4 23:41:00 2003
From: rbultje at ronald.bitfreak.net (Ronald Bultje)
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 23:41:00 +0100
Subject: [Matroska-general] Matroska in closed source products
In-Reply-To: <3FCFABB8.4030203@matroska.org>
References: <bqnv5d$ptq$1@sea.gmane.org>  <3FCFABB8.4030203@matroska.org>
Message-ID: <1070577659.2264.12.camel@shrek.bitfreak.net>

On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 22:48, Christian HJ Wiesner wrote:
> 2. New C library from BBB : Ronald 'BBB' Bultje has made a new library 
> in C, not C++ like libmatroska/libebml, so that maybe one day matroska 
> may get supported in FFMPEG/libavformat. The license for this library is 
> L-GPL, so this allows use in closed source programs also, as long as you 
> make the code for the library itself available, and even via a link in 
> your documentation. This code can not be found in the matroska CVS, its 
> currently in the Gstreamer CVS ( http://gstreamer.net ) and used in the 
> matroska plugin for gstreamer. Its currently playback only, but should 
> be ideal for your purpose, even if some of the more advanced features of 
> matroska are not implemented yet.

Just wanted to clear up two things:
1) it's not a lib. ;). It's a plugin. If you want to use it yourself,
copy the files, make it a loadable plugin in your system and provide
LGPL sources and patches. That's fully legal. Don't forget that the
sources require glib. There's a win32 version of glib, it's LGPL too.
You can also do a search'n'replace, we mostly only use types from glib
(gint instead of int, gchar instead of char, etc. - for portability
reasons), we don't use that many glib functions.
2) the things unimplemented are menus and metadata.

The code can be found in CVS, module gst-plugins, dir gst/matroska/.

Ronald

-- 
Ronald Bultje <rbultje at ronald.bitfreak.net>
Linux Video/Multimedia developer



From chris at matroska.org  Thu Dec  4 23:48:47 2003
From: chris at matroska.org (Christian HJ Wiesner)
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 23:48:47 +0100
Subject: [Matroska-general] Using matroska for Comic Distribution
Message-ID: <3FCFB9CF.90600@matroska.org>

Hi guys,

this request here is pretty interesting i guess :

http://corecodec.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=2713#2713

Christian



From H.NS.Duden at gmx.net  Fri Dec  5 00:21:35 2003
From: H.NS.Duden at gmx.net (Hauke Duden)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 00:21:35 +0100
Subject: [Matroska-general] Re: Matroska in closed source products
In-Reply-To: <3FCFABB8.4030203@matroska.org>
References: <bqnv5d$ptq$1@sea.gmane.org> <3FCFABB8.4030203@matroska.org>
Message-ID: <bqoer5$i6v$1@sea.gmane.org>

Hi Christian,

thanks for your quick reply, especially the in-depth explanations you 
gave and the suggestions you made. It gave me a much better 
understanding of our possibilities.

> However, you have to understand that the main reason for not giving the 
> libraries away to anybody with a much weaker license form, is not 
> because we dont want matroska to be supported in closed source apps, but 
> because in the present situation of the project we want to have as much 
> control as possible on apps that are CREATING matroska files, to avoid 
> incompatibilities and frustration of the users, at least until the 
> format has become widely adopted.

Just a few thoughts on that. I do not quite understand how NOT providing 
a library will help you achieve your goal of fewer incompatibilities. 
Ignoring the workarounds you mentioned at the end of your email for a 
moment, it seems to me that if the libraries are not available you force 
closed source developers to follow one of two paths:

1) Not support Matroska. That may or may not be what you want, depending 
on how much you advocate "pure" open source software. I do not know 
enough about the Matroska developers to take a guess here, but your 
response seems to indicate that you do want your format to be supported.

2) Implement Matroska support on their own. The consequence would almost 
certainly be that there would be more incompatibilities and different 
types of files, possibly even with vendor-specific "extensions".

Now about the workarounds:

> 1. Plugin System : The most easiest way to overcome the opensource 
> problem is via a player specific 'plugin' .

Our player already uses a plugin system, so this is quite interesting. 
We also have a DirectShow plugin for our player, so using a Matroska 
DirectShow Filter would be even easier. However, if I read the license 
correctly then we would not be allowed to distribute such a plugin 
together with our player, correct? I was hoping to add Matroska to our 
list of standard file formats that work out of the box.

> 2. New C library from BBB : Ronald 'BBB' Bultje has made a new library 
> in C, not C++ like libmatroska/libebml, so that maybe one day matroska 
> may get supported in FFMPEG/libavformat. The license for this library is 
> L-GPL, so this allows use in closed source programs also, as long as you 
> make the code for the library itself available, and even via a link in 
> your documentation.

That could be the perfect solution. I'll take a look at that library, 
see if it fits our needs. Thanks for pointing me to this!

> 3. If 2. is no option for you, and you absolutely cant build matroska 
> support based on a plugin, then as a last option we might be able to 
> license you on the code. We already have such a request from another 
> closed source program, and are admittedly a bit late in getting a proper 
> license agreement into a written form, and signed by all developers 
> involved in the making of the 2 libs.

Is there an ETA on when to expect the new license? Are we talking about 
weeks or months? If the standard library could become a viable option 
for us in the near future, then I'll put the decision of whether to use 
the LGPL C-lib or the standard C++ library on hold for a while, until 
you've worked out that new license.


Thanks again for your suggestions!

Hauke




From H.NS.Duden at gmx.net  Fri Dec  5 00:45:21 2003
From: H.NS.Duden at gmx.net (Hauke Duden)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 00:45:21 +0100
Subject: [Matroska-general] Re: Matroska in closed source products
In-Reply-To: <1070577659.2264.12.camel@shrek.bitfreak.net>
References: <bqnv5d$ptq$1@sea.gmane.org> <3FCFABB8.4030203@matroska.org>
	<1070577659.2264.12.camel@shrek.bitfreak.net>
Message-ID: <bqog7n$kr3$1@sea.gmane.org>

Ronald Bultje wrote:
> On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 22:48, Christian HJ Wiesner wrote:
> 
>>2. New C library from BBB : Ronald 'BBB' Bultje has made a new library 
>>in C, not C++ like libmatroska/libebml, so that maybe one day matroska 
>>may get supported in FFMPEG/libavformat. The license for this library is 
>>L-GPL, so this allows use in closed source programs also, as long as you 
>>make the code for the library itself available, and even via a link in 
>>your documentation. This code can not be found in the matroska CVS, its 
>>currently in the Gstreamer CVS ( http://gstreamer.net ) and used in the 
>>matroska plugin for gstreamer. Its currently playback only, but should 
>>be ideal for your purpose, even if some of the more advanced features of 
>>matroska are not implemented yet.
> 
> 
> Just wanted to clear up two things:
> 1) it's not a lib. ;). It's a plugin. If you want to use it yourself,
> copy the files, make it a loadable plugin in your system and provide
> LGPL sources and patches. That's fully legal. Don't forget that the
> sources require glib. There's a win32 version of glib, it's LGPL too.
> You can also do a search'n'replace, we mostly only use types from glib
> (gint instead of int, gchar instead of char, etc. - for portability
> reasons), we don't use that many glib functions.
> 2) the things unimplemented are menus and metadata.
> 
> The code can be found in CVS, module gst-plugins, dir gst/matroska/.

Thanks for the info. It not being a lib (yet) doesn't bother me much. 
I've got quite some experience in creating libraries from application 
code, so maybe I'll first make a lib out of it and then use that for our 
own plugin. Or, maybe, if the plugin interface is similar to ours, I'll 
just try to modify it to make it compatible. I'll have to see what the 
code looks like...

In any case, you can be assured that if we use your code we'll honor the 
LGPL and make all changes available.

Hauke




From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Thu Dec  4 21:30:57 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 21:30:57 +0100
Subject: [Matroska-general] Matroska in closed source products
In-Reply-To: <bqnv5d$ptq$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <bqnv5d$ptq$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <3FCF9981.3090700@free.fr>

Hauke Duden wrote:

> Hello all,
> 
> I'm currently evaluating on whether we will include Matroska support in 
> our free - but closed source - media player (Ashampoo Media Player+).
> 
> However, it seems that this is not possible with either of the two 
> licenses you offer for your libraries. The GPL is of course not an 
> option for closed source programs. And I'm not too familiar with the 
> QPL, but it seems to me that it also requires applications using the 
> libraries to be open-sourced.
> 
> Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the following part of the license 
> seems to make that pretty clear:
> 
> """
> 6. You may develop application programs, reusable components and other
> software items that link with the original or modified versions of the   
> Software.  These items, when distributed, are subject to the 
> following    requirements:
> <snip>
>      b. You must explicitly license all recipients of your items to use
>         and re-distribute original and modified versions of the items in
>         both machine-executable and source code forms.
> <snip>
> """
> 
> If I understand this correctly, then "items" refers to application 
> programs using the matroska libs and 6.b requires those to be open source.

That's correct.

> However, I have seen commercial players with Matroska support. Have 
> these programs implemented their own Matroska libraries from your specs 
> or is there some aspect to this license that I don't understand?
> 
> Thanks for any insights,

If your player is DirectShow based, you don't need to link your software 
to the filter directly. So you can have Matroska support with this 
filter (that you can distribute) free of any legal problem. Also please 
note that the major DirectShow filter to read Matroska 
(matroskasplitter.ax) is not based on libmatroska/libebml anyway. IIRC 
it's GPL licensed. But the same applies for legal problems.



From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Sat Dec  6 14:55:38 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 14:55:38 +0100
Subject: [Matroska-general] Using matroska for Comic Distribution
In-Reply-To: <3FCFB9CF.90600@matroska.org>
References: <3FCFB9CF.90600@matroska.org>
Message-ID: <3FD1DFDA.9020707@free.fr>

Christian HJ Wiesner wrote:

> Hi guys,
> 
> this request here is pretty interesting i guess :
> 
> http://corecodec.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=2713#2713 

It would be nice to have a specific codec for that. Or a specific 
application for Comics in Matroska. Because a frame can last many times. 
So the timecode should be used differently... Otherwise the attachement 
way can work but it's not very clean.



From paul at msn.com  Sat Dec  6 19:25:41 2003
From: paul at msn.com (Pamel)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 12:25:41 -0600
Subject: [Matroska-general] Re: Using matroska for Comic Distribution
References: <3FCFB9CF.90600@matroska.org> <3FD1DFDA.9020707@free.fr>
Message-ID: <bqt6v3$h37$1@sea.gmane.org>

"Steve Lhomme" wrote...
> It would be nice to have a specific codec for that. Or a specific
> application for Comics in Matroska. Because a frame can last many times.
> So the timecode should be used differently... Otherwise the attachement
> way can work but it's not very clean.

Easy.  Make sure that all images have the same dimensions.  Import them into
VDMod as a sequence of images.  Set the framerate to 0.01 fps. (That makes 100
seconds before an auto page change.)  Compress with CorePNG without delta
frames.  And if you're good, set a chapter for each page, or ever 100 seconds.

When opening the file, you can jump to a specific page, or read through and just
the Next Chapter button to go to the next page.

You could even have a nice audio track.  ;)


Pamel





From moritz at bunkus.org  Thu Dec 11 19:59:20 2003
From: moritz at bunkus.org (Moritz Bunkus)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 19:59:20 +0100
Subject: [Matroska-general] mkvtoolnix 0.7.9 released
Message-ID: <20031211185920.GC21778@bunkus.org>

Hello mailing lists readers and package maintainers,

here's another fresh version of mkvtoolnix, 0.7.9 this time. A couple of
bus less, a couple of new features, that about sums it up.

The homepage:
http://www.bunkus.org/videotools/mkvtoolnix/
Source code:
http://www.bunkus.org/videotools/mkvtoolnix/sources/mkvtoolnix-0.7.9.tar.bz2
Windows binaries:
http://www.bunkus.org/videotools/mkvtoolnix/win32/mkvtoolnix-0.7.9.rar

and the ChangeLog since 0.7.8:
---------------------
2003-12-11  Moritz Bunkus  <moritz at bunkus.org>

	* Released v0.7.9.

2003-12-05  Moritz Bunkus  <moritz at bunkus.org>

	* mkvmerge: Set the thread priority to BELOW_NORMAL on Windows
	(mkvmerge was already nice(2)'d on Unix systems).

	* mmg: bug fix: Removed the Ctrl-v and Ctrl-c accelerators that I
	used for mmg functions which overrode the usual 'paste' and 'copy'
	functionality.

	* mmg: Command line arguments are put into an option file which is
	then handed over to mkvmerge. This allows really long command
	lines, even on Windows.

	* mkvmerge: bug fix: Negative track IDs in Ogg files were reported
	incorrectly for mkvmerge -i (which affected the GUI).

	* mkvmerge: bug fix: Internal changes had messed up the --language
	and --track-name functionality.

2003-12-04  Moritz Bunkus  <moritz at bunkus.org>

	* mmg: new feature: Added "up" and "down" buttons for the tracks,
	too.

	* mmg: new feature: Added a menu option, 'set output file', that
	can be used as an alternative to the "browse" button at the bottom
	(for those poor users with nothing more than 800x600 ;)).

	* mkvmerge: new feature: The user can alter the order in which the
	tracks for an input file are put into the output file with the new
	"--track-order" option.

	* mmg: bug fix: The "AAC is SBR" check box was grayed out for AAC
	inside MP4 files.

2003-12-03  Moritz Bunkus  <moritz at bunkus.org>

	* mmg: bug fix: The "load settings" function did not load all
	settings, and some strings were not allocated at all resulting in
	a crash when a track was removed after loading these settings.

	* mkvmerge: bug fix: The AAC packetizer was not working if packets
	were being read from a raw AAC file (it worked fine from MP4 and
	Matroska files).

	* mkvmerge: bug fix: Avoid deadlocks when parsing broken SPU
	packets from VobSubs.

	* mmg: new feature: Added buttons for moving input files up and
	down in the input file box.
--------------

Have fun and thanks for your work, packagers.

Mosu

-- 
If Darl McBride was in charge, he'd probably make marriage
unconstitutional too, since clearly it de-emphasizes the commercial
nature of normal human interaction, and probably is a major impediment
to the commercial growth of prostitution. - Linus Torvalds


From chris at matroska.org  Sat Dec 13 17:29:00 2003
From: chris at matroska.org (Christian HJ Wiesner)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 17:29:00 +0100
Subject: [Matroska-general] Re: Matroska in closed source products
In-Reply-To: <bqog7n$kr3$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <bqnv5d$ptq$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<3FCFABB8.4030203@matroska.org>	<1070577659.2264.12.camel@shrek.bitfreak.net>
	<bqog7n$kr3$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <3FDB3E4C.4070904@matroska.org>

Hi Hauke,

just wanted to inform you that after serious discussion, it seems the 
main author of libmatroska, Steve Lhomme, doesnt want to go the L-GPL 
way for the main lib that quickly.

For this reason, i recommend you look at BBB 's C library instead, it 
should work for most playback aspects already. If you need a link to the 
source again, gimme a shout.

Christian
matroska project admin

Hauke Duden wrote:

> Ronald Bultje wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 22:48, Christian HJ Wiesner wrote:
>>
>>> 2. New C library from BBB : Ronald 'BBB' Bultje has made a new 
>>> library in C, not C++ like libmatroska/libebml, so that maybe one day 
>>> matroska may get supported in FFMPEG/libavformat. The license for 
>>> this library is L-GPL, so this allows use in closed source programs 
>>> also, as long as you make the code for the library itself available, 
>>> and even via a link in your documentation. This code can not be found 
>>> in the matroska CVS, its currently in the Gstreamer CVS ( 
>>> http://gstreamer.net ) and used in the matroska plugin for gstreamer. 
>>> Its currently playback only, but should be ideal for your purpose, 
>>> even if some of the more advanced features of matroska are not 
>>> implemented yet.
>>
>>
>>
>> Just wanted to clear up two things:
>> 1) it's not a lib. ;). It's a plugin. If you want to use it yourself,
>> copy the files, make it a loadable plugin in your system and provide
>> LGPL sources and patches. That's fully legal. Don't forget that the
>> sources require glib. There's a win32 version of glib, it's LGPL too.
>> You can also do a search'n'replace, we mostly only use types from glib
>> (gint instead of int, gchar instead of char, etc. - for portability
>> reasons), we don't use that many glib functions.
>> 2) the things unimplemented are menus and metadata.
>>
>> The code can be found in CVS, module gst-plugins, dir gst/matroska/.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the info. It not being a lib (yet) doesn't bother me much. 
> I've got quite some experience in creating libraries from application 
> code, so maybe I'll first make a lib out of it and then use that for our 
> own plugin. Or, maybe, if the plugin interface is similar to ours, I'll 
> just try to modify it to make it compatible. I'll have to see what the 
> code looks like...
> 
> In any case, you can be assured that if we use your code we'll honor the 
> LGPL and make all changes available.
> 
> Hauke
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Matroska-general mailing list
> Matroska-general at lists.matroska.org
> http://lists.matroska.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/matroska-general
> 



From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Sun Dec 14 10:32:05 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 10:32:05 +0100
Subject: [Matroska-general] 0install MMG
Message-ID: <3FDC2E15.7030006@free.fr>

How about adding MMG to this system ?

http://freshmeat.net/articles/view/1049/

MPlayer and VLC would be great too.



From chris at matroska.org  Sun Dec 14 22:31:03 2003
From: chris at matroska.org (Christian HJ Wiesner)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 22:31:03 +0100
Subject: [Matroska-general] Subtitles in MP4 .. a mess !!
Message-ID: <3FDCD697.2020505@matroska.org>

Read here : 
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66661&perpage=20&pagenumber=3

*[quote]ND Subtitles & Chapters issue ; from bobolobo, member of the 
Nero Digital dev team :*

I'd like to bring some clarifications about ND mp4 files, Subtitles and 
Chapters support as it seems to generate much discussions, lack of 
understanding, etc. I hope this could enlight you on the way it is done 
and why.

Basically, the mpeg-4 standard doesn't specify a way to handle subtitles 
and chapters. That is to say the notion of movie subtitles and chapters 
doesn't exist in the standard. From that assumption, there is no reason 
to say subtiltes or chapters are ISO compliant or not since there is no 
spec for this.

However mpeg-4 is a very rich standard and provide several tools one can 
use to implement the support of subtitles and chapters. For the 
subtitles, we can have :

- 2D BIFS
- Streaming Text Format (14496-17)
- private data

The first approach (2D BIFS) consists in the use of the complex mpeg-4 
system layer to describe a presentation composed of multiple objects 
(audio stream, video stream, 2D bitmap, etc.). In the absolute this 
should be the best way to implement subtitles. However, due to its 
complexity it would involve a lot of work for us which simply means more 
delay before the release ! Beside this constraint, we were also faced to 
the fact that such complex system management would become a real 
headache on embedded platforms (ie standalones) were resource are 
extrexemly limited. Therefore a fast adoption of MP4 format in this 
area. Just imagine us telling standalone manufacturers : to support MP4 
it's quite easy, just read the 1000 pages of mpeg-4 BIFS system 
standard, then make it fit in your 16 kB of memory and you'll get it ! 
You'll understand that solution was not reasonable for us and that's why 
we prefer in our first stage to not use this implementation. But in 
futur evolutions, the addition of new features like menus, 
interactivity, and with the spreading of more powerful chips, we may 
seriously consider this solution.

The second solution "Streaming Text Format" is a new part of the 
standard not approved yet. It uses text data rather than bitmap for the 
subtitles and relies on the previous system layer. Considering subtitles 
in DVD are bitmap it would require some OCR process. In conclusion this 
solution is even harder to implement (imagine bitmap to unicode 
conversion for chinese or arabic language !). So we coulnd't choose this 
way.

And finaly the last solution uses mp4 file user data to store our info. 
Since the mp4 file provides private data space, we simply put our 
compressed data here. These user data must be discarded by decoders that 
don't know how to handle them so that shouldn't hurt.
This was the best compromise we found and basically this doesn't differ 
much from other system like vobsub which stores data in a file beside.

For the chapter list, we applied the same recipe since there was no 
really other mean to achieve this.

I hope this clarify a little bit things and help you to understand why 
these choice were done.

And last but not least, for those who are concerned about ND MP4 files 
support on their standalone, be sure we're making much efforts in 
promoting ISO MP4 support in standalones. Discussions are on the way and 
hopefuly mp4 support will come quite soon.[/quote]


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From seandarcy at hotmail.com  Tue Dec 16 05:56:15 2003
From: seandarcy at hotmail.com (sean)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 23:56:15 -0500
Subject: [Matroska-general] any rpms available for matroska?
Message-ID: <brm39f$o2t$1@sea.gmane.org>

The only one I've found are rpms for Mandrake, which can't be used on a 
redhat system.

Any leads?

sean



From slash295 at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 19 06:15:16 2003
From: slash295 at yahoo.com (slash)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 21:15:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Matroska-general] use unicode release or what?
Message-ID: <20031219051516.31501.qmail@web40906.mail.yahoo.com>

When I download updates for matroska, I don't know whether to use the 'release unicode' or the 'release' version.  I don't know what the difference is either.
Could you please inform me on which one to use?
 
Thanks


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing
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From spyder at matroska.org  Fri Dec 19 06:40:40 2003
From: spyder at matroska.org (John Cannon)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 23:40:40 -0600
Subject: [Matroska-general] use unicode release or what?
References: <20031219051516.31501.qmail@web40906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <007c01c3c5f2$a4221380$0cc8c8c8@johnc2>

When I download updates for matroska, I don't know whether to use the 'release unicode' or the 'release' version.  I don't know what the difference is either.

Could you please inform me on which one to use?

Use the Unicode version if you are using Windows XP or 2000.  If you are using 95/98/Me/NT4, use the non-unicode one.

Spyder
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From christian at matroska.org  Sat Dec 20 00:09:52 2003
From: christian at matroska.org (ChristianHJW)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 00:09:52 +0100
Subject: [Matroska-general] Re: Matroska
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0312142102290.745-100000@x-wing.tmmm.home>
References: <3FDD2F67.8080805@oldskool.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0312142102290.745-100000@x-wing.tmmm.home>
Message-ID: <3FE38540.7090403@matroska.org>

Mike Melanson wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Dec 2003, Jim Leonard wrote:
>>
>>I have to admit, I have no idea why we needed another container format.  What
>>was wrong with MPEG-4?
> 
> 
> 	Ooh, ouch, I hope you're ready for a good flaming...:) Not from
> me, but from the hordes of Quicktime-format-haters out there who hate
> official MPEG-4 files even more because they're a bizarre extension of QT.
> 	But you won't get it from me because I am a big fan of QT.
> 	-Mike Melanson

;) .... from me neither, MP4 is pretty nice for what its made for.

About matroska, we currently have

XviD
DivX 3/4/5
WMV9
MPEG4V1/2/3
RealVideo ( rv 10,20,30,40 = RV9 )
any VCM codec

MP3
AC3
DTS
AAC
AAC SBR
Vorbis
FLAC
MP2
RA8
RALF
ATRAC
CELP
any ACM codec

SRT
SSA
ASS
Vobsub
Vobsub/zlib

chapters
track names
tags
attachements

supported in matroska already, and in any combination and unlimited 
number of tracks.

I know this all, in theory, could have been done with MOV also, but i 
dont know of any existing software that actually does it ;) ?

About Arpi's rant( C++ ) : we have a nice working C lib now, made by 
Ronald 'BBB' Bultje, in L-GPL. Its the base for his matroska gstreamer 
plugin, and in gstreamer CVS.

Christian
matroska project admin
http://www.matroska.org



From moritz at bunkus.org  Mon Dec 22 22:15:57 2003
From: moritz at bunkus.org (Moritz Bunkus)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 22:15:57 +0100
Subject: [Matroska-general] vobsub warnings in mkvmerge
Message-ID: <20031222211557.GC13774@bunkus.org>

Heya,

I'm at my parent's but still have access to internet/irc from time to
time. Browsing through the channel log I noticed some questions about
vobsub warnings by mkvmerge:

[.17:35:28.]  Cyrius:: "Warning: vobsub_packetizer: Encountered broken
SPU packet (next_off < start_off) at timecode 01:08:51.160. This packet
might be displayed incorrectly or not at all."

Some clarifications. mkvmerge tries to extract data from the SPU packets
(the duration). During this it will parse the SPU data, and it uses
approximately the same algorithm that Gabest's VobSub filter uses. So if
my program cannot cope with it then it is highly likely that Gabest's
filter can't either.

More clarification: These packets are still copied into the Matroska
file and not dropped! The warning is still present and will be because -
to my knowledge - these packets are damaged and will probably not be
displayed. Just like the warning says :)

Cyrius, if you read this please point gilb to this post. Thanks.

Mosu

-- 
If Darl McBride was in charge, he'd probably make marriage
unconstitutional too, since clearly it de-emphasizes the commercial
nature of normal human interaction, and probably is a major impediment
to the commercial growth of prostitution. - Linus Torvalds


From christian at matroska.org  Wed Dec 24 08:50:47 2003
From: christian at matroska.org (ChristianHJW)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 08:50:47 +0100
Subject: [Matroska-general] Re: video application developer meeting
In-Reply-To: <20031223130042.0cacb343.kinali@gmx.net>
References: <20031223130042.0cacb343.kinali@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <3FE94557.3080202@matroska.org>

Attila Kinali wrote:
> Hello everybody, 
> To get straight to the point, i'd like to make one of my childhood
> wishes come true... Well, not exactly but i was thinging about
> something like this for a while.
> What is it about ? I'd like to organize a meeting of
> opensource video application developers to help the exchange
> of ideas and plan the further development.
> The meeting would be held within the course of the 
> Swiss Unix Conference 2004 (SUCON'04) begining
> of september 2004 (as of current planing 2-4 sept)
> in Zurich/Switzerland.
> (The webpage www.sucon.ch shows still the program
> of last year, but should be updated soon)
> Would you be interested in such a meeting ?
> And/or would some of you be interested in giving
> a speach at the SUCON'04 ?
> Greetings from a Switzerland where it's finaly snowing
> 			Attila Kinali

matroska people not invited :( ..... i could have organized to get Mosu 
and Alex in my car and we could drive down to CH together, maybe Steve, 
Christophe and Cyrius would come from France also .... i love the idea 
:). Its still pending to create a powerful, open source/open standard 
codec, filter and container API together.

Christian
matroska project admin
http://www.matroska.org



From paul at msn.com  Wed Dec 24 08:55:33 2003
From: paul at msn.com (Pamel)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 01:55:33 -0600
Subject: [Matroska-general] Re: video application developer meeting
References: <20031223130042.0cacb343.kinali@gmx.net>
	<3FE94557.3080202@matroska.org>
Message-ID: <bsbgri$e6v$1@sea.gmane.org>

"ChristianHJW" wrote...
> Attila Kinali wrote:
> > The meeting would be held within the course of the
> > Swiss Unix Conference 2004 (SUCON'04) begining
> > of september 2004 (as of current planing 2-4 sept)
> > in Zurich/Switzerland.
>
> matroska people not invited

Well, there is 10 months to prepare so I'm sure it will go fine.


Pamel





From steve.lhomme at free.fr  Wed Dec 24 09:47:28 2003
From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 09:47:28 +0100
Subject: [Matroska-general] Re: video application developer meeting
In-Reply-To: <3FE94557.3080202@matroska.org>
References: <20031223130042.0cacb343.kinali@gmx.net>
	<3FE94557.3080202@matroska.org>
Message-ID: <3FE952A0.5040106@free.fr>

ChristianHJW wrote:

> Attila Kinali wrote:
> 
>> Hello everybody, To get straight to the point, i'd like to make one of 
>> my childhood
>> wishes come true... Well, not exactly but i was thinging about
>> something like this for a while.
>> What is it about ? I'd like to organize a meeting of
>> opensource video application developers to help the exchange
>> of ideas and plan the further development.
>> The meeting would be held within the course of the Swiss Unix 
>> Conference 2004 (SUCON'04) begining
>> of september 2004 (as of current planing 2-4 sept)
>> in Zurich/Switzerland.
>> (The webpage www.sucon.ch shows still the program
>> of last year, but should be updated soon)
>> Would you be interested in such a meeting ?
>> And/or would some of you be interested in giving
>> a speach at the SUCON'04 ?
>> Greetings from a Switzerland where it's finaly snowing
>>             Attila Kinali
> 
> 
> matroska people not invited :( ..... i could have organized to get Mosu 
> and Alex in my car and we could drive down to CH together, maybe Steve, 
> Christophe and Cyrius would come from France also .... i love the idea 
> :). Its still pending to create a powerful, open source/open standard 
> codec, filter and container API together.

But who is invited ?
Of course I would like to go. And that would be also a good opportunity 
for us to meet !



From yusaku at anime.cz  Fri Dec 26 08:41:09 2003
From: yusaku at anime.cz (Yusaku)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 16:41:09 +0900
Subject: [Matroska-general] VobSub SSA subtitles in matroska
Message-ID: <bsgoq8$eiv$1@sea.gmane.org>

Hi,

You might remember me babbling about converting SSA to VobSub with the
purpose of matroska embedding before... and since I got some free time, I
decided to try it for real. At http://www.anime.cz/s2v you'll find the
classic MewMew matroska sample converted to use VobSub subtitles.

Advantages of using VobSub over SSA subs in matroska:
- independent on international support installed on the computer - i.e.
japanese characters will always work
- lower processor usage
- you can use any fonts you want
- graphics is possible (look at the last subtitle of "credits")

Disadvantages:
- No animations, karaoke etc. (forget ASS)
- lower antialiasing support

E.g. all in all - it looks slightly worse, BUT it will work everywhere and
it'll look always exactly the same... and it doesn't need P4 to decode subs.

The converting tool is not released yet - I need to make it a bit more user
friendly before that - should be before new year, though...

Notes: Mosu: could you losen up a little on the MPEG2 parsing? VobSub will
not complain about wrong contents of PS packets, but mkvmerge does complain
about "Unsupported MPEG level" or something like that...

Yusaku





From paul at msn.com  Fri Dec 26 09:33:05 2003
From: paul at msn.com (Paul Bryson)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 02:33:05 -0600
Subject: [Matroska-general] Re: VobSub SSA subtitles in matroska
References: <bsgoq8$eiv$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <bsgrn8$h7h$1@sea.gmane.org>

"Yusaku" wrote...
> Disadvantages:
> - No animations, karaoke etc. (forget ASS)
You should be able to render ASS at 24fps (or whatever framerate) for importing
as VobSub.  It would take a lot more space, but it would certainly be possible.
If someone made a highspeed lossless codec that supported P frames, it wouldn't
even take up that much space.  CorePNG wouldn't be an option for rendered ASS as
it decodes much to slowly.  But, someone could probably make a version of
Huffyuv that used diffs for P frames, just like CorePNG does.

> The converting tool is not released yet - I need to make it a bit more user
> friendly before that - should be before new year, though...

Very cool.

> Notes: Mosu: could you losen up a little on the MPEG2 parsing? VobSub will
> not complain about wrong contents of PS packets, but mkvmerge does complain
> about "Unsupported MPEG level" or something like that...

That should be a warning to let the user know there was something not right with
the data stream.  It might still be playable, but it is important to let people
know about potential issues.


Pamel





From yusaku at anime.cz  Fri Dec 26 09:49:24 2003
From: yusaku at anime.cz (Yusaku)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 17:49:24 +0900
Subject: [Matroska-general] Re: VobSub SSA subtitles in matroska
References: <bsgoq8$eiv$1@sea.gmane.org> <bsgrn8$h7h$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <bsgsmm$i1q$1@sea.gmane.org>

> > Disadvantages:
> > - No animations, karaoke etc. (forget ASS)
> You should be able to render ASS at 24fps (or whatever framerate) for
importing
> as VobSub.  It would take a lot more space, but it would certainly be
possible.
> If someone made a highspeed lossless codec that supported P frames, it
wouldn't
> even take up that much space.  CorePNG wouldn't be an option for rendered
ASS as
> it decodes much to slowly.  But, someone could probably make a version of
> Huffyuv that used diffs for P frames, just like CorePNG does.

Yeah - unfortunatelly my app just converts already rendered bitmap from
MaestroSBT, which doesn't support ASS. But integrating it to TextSub code
sounds really nice - I am just scared of the DShow part, as it would
probably need a new pins for image (not vobsub) subs etc.

Also, starting from next year (not too far now...) the bloody Unisys GIF LZW
patent will finally become a history - and as GIF decoding is a LOT faster
than PNG, it could be done this way...

> > Notes: Mosu: could you losen up a little on the MPEG2 parsing? VobSub
will
> > not complain about wrong contents of PS packets, but mkvmerge does
complain
> > about "Unsupported MPEG level" or something like that...
>
> That should be a warning to let the user know there was something not
right with
> the data stream.  It might still be playable, but it is important to let
people
> know about potential issues.

I would not say anything if that would be the case, unfortunately now it
rejects all packets which are not MPEG2 compatible (=for quite some time all
I got was empty VobSub stream)

Yusaku





From paul at msn.com  Fri Dec 26 10:09:34 2003
From: paul at msn.com (Paul Bryson)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 03:09:34 -0600
Subject: [Matroska-general] Re: VobSub SSA subtitles in matroska
References: <bsgoq8$eiv$1@sea.gmane.org> <bsgrn8$h7h$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<bsgsmm$i1q$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <bsgtrl$j7d$1@sea.gmane.org>

"Yusaku" wrote...
> Also, starting from next year (not too far now...) the bloody Unisys GIF LZW
> patent will finally become a history - and as GIF decoding is a LOT faster
> than PNG, it could be done this way...

Isn't GIF limited to 8 bit?

> I would not say anything if that would be the case, unfortunately now it
> rejects all packets which are not MPEG2 compatible (=for quite some time all
> I got was empty VobSub stream)

If it is what I am thinking of it should still store the packet, just give you a
warning to let you know.  Perhaps this is a different problem that you are
having?


Pamel





From yusaku at anime.cz  Fri Dec 26 10:20:33 2003
From: yusaku at anime.cz (Yusaku)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 18:20:33 +0900
Subject: [Matroska-general] Re: VobSub SSA subtitles in matroska
References: <bsgoq8$eiv$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<bsgrn8$h7h$1@sea.gmane.org><bsgsmm$i1q$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<bsgtrl$j7d$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <bsgvk3$ksi$1@sea.gmane.org>

> > Also, starting from next year (not too far now...) the bloody Unisys GIF
LZW
> > patent will finally become a history - and as GIF decoding is a LOT
faster
> > than PNG, it could be done this way...
>
> Isn't GIF limited to 8 bit?

you can LZW compress even 24-bit image... but, mostly - you need to compress
only each individual subtitle, which has four colors (transparent, color,
outline, shadow). The antialiasing will need more colors, but I still think
256 is quite sufficient and people will not notice the difference. (e.g.
each subtitle would be encoded to its own motion-GIF and there would be a
possibility of more motion-GIFs for one video frame)

> If it is what I am thinking of it should still store the packet, just give
you a
> warning to let you know.  Perhaps this is a different problem that you are
> having?

Solved now, but... yeah, it did NOT store the "wrong" packets.

Anyway, before replying... let me join #matroska :)

Yusaku





From Liisachan at faireal.net  Fri Dec 26 11:25:46 2003
From: Liisachan at faireal.net (Liisachan)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 19:25:46 +0900
Subject: [Matroska-general] VobSub SSA subtitles in matroska
In-Reply-To: <bsgoq8$eiv$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <bsgoq8$eiv$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <3FEC0CAA.4090409@faireal.net>

Yusaku wrote:

>Hi,
>
>You might remember me babbling about converting SSA to VobSub with the
>purpose of matroska embedding before... and since I got some free time, I
>decided to try it for real. At http://www.anime.cz/s2v you'll find the
>classic MewMew matroska sample converted to use VobSub subtitles.
>
>  
>
Checked it. Very cool:D

>Advantages of using VobSub over SSA subs in matroska:
>- independent on international support installed on the computer - i.e.
>japanese characters will always work
>  
>
This is the point, I agree, altho you could install font files etc if 
you are using a computer....

Plus, image subs should be needed for hw support.

By the way, if you are using SSA, it is recommended to specify 
"encoding" in SSA header
(same as {\fe}, like 128 for Japanese) for Win98, even if your ssa is in 
Uniode.
That old mewmew sample is ok for win2k/xp,
but not good for Win98, because "encoding" params were (carelessly) 
always set 0,
which is technically not a problem because the files were in Unicode,
but practically a problem for playing back on Win98

i18n'ed SSA subs should work on Win98 too more easily than in the mewmew 
sample.
Tho, image subs will be a great option anyway
Like you said, it will be very "safe" at the cost of loss of font quality.

>- lower processor usage
>- you can use any fonts you want
>- graphics is possible (look at the last subtitle of "credits")
>
>Disadvantages:
>- No animations, karaoke etc. (forget ASS)
>- lower antialiasing support
>
>E.g. all in all - it looks slightly worse, BUT it will work everywhere and
>it'll look always exactly the same... and it doesn't need P4 to decode subs.
>
>The converting tool is not released yet - I need to make it a bit more user
>friendly before that - should be before new year, though...
>
>Notes: Mosu: could you losen up a little on the MPEG2 parsing? VobSub will
>not complain about wrong contents of PS packets, but mkvmerge does complain
>about "Unsupported MPEG level" or something like that...
>
>  
>
Actually, i tried your method too a little while ago,
Did you read this?
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65969

I had this problem too:
"There's a tool called SubLog Extractor Filter 
<http://www.xs4all.nl/%7Evielle/video/sublog.html> ,
which can generate "original" vobsub (idx/sub) files from textsub data.
Gabest's vobsub tools are happy with the resulted idx/sub,
while MKVMerge does not accept such files, saying "vobsub_packetizer: 
Unsupported MPEG version: 0x00"
If you open the .sub file in question with binary editor and replace all 
the "00 00 01 BA 00" headers with "01 00 01 BA 00" or "00 01 01 BA 00",
then MKVMerge will be "fooled" and accept this .sub file.
However, if there's no reason to reject "version 0x00", could you please 
accept it, because it is actually used by this tool (SubLog)?"

And Mosu answered here
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64548&perpage=20&pagenumber=7

I had another problem: SubLog Extractor sometimes made "noisy" short 
lines around the real subs.
Now I saw the similar (noisy) short lines in your sample too.

Liisachan


>Yusaku
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Matroska-general mailing list
>Matroska-general at lists.matroska.org
>http://lists.matroska.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/matroska-general
>
>
>  
>



From yusaku at anime.cz  Fri Dec 26 11:44:17 2003
From: yusaku at anime.cz (Yusaku)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 19:44:17 +0900
Subject: [Matroska-general] Re: VobSub SSA subtitles in matroska
References: <bsgoq8$eiv$1@sea.gmane.org> <3FEC0CAA.4090409@faireal.net>
Message-ID: <bsh3e3$oqd$1@sea.gmane.org>

> Actually, i tried your method too a little while ago,
> Did you read this?
> http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65969

Nope... Hmmm... that's... unorthodox way :). Well, at least this way you
save the colors ^_^.

> I had this problem too:
> "There's a tool called SubLog Extractor Filter
> <http://www.xs4all.nl/%7Evielle/video/sublog.html> ,
> which can generate "original" vobsub (idx/sub) files from textsub data.
> Gabest's vobsub tools are happy with the resulted idx/sub,
> while MKVMerge does not accept such files, saying "vobsub_packetizer:
> Unsupported MPEG version: 0x00"
> If you open the .sub file in question with binary editor and replace all
> the "00 00 01 BA 00" headers with "01 00 01 BA 00" or "00 01 01 BA 00",
> then MKVMerge will be "fooled" and accept this .sub file.
> However, if there's no reason to reject "version 0x00", could you please
> accept it, because it is actually used by this tool (SubLog)?"
>
> And Mosu answered here
>
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64548&perpage=20&pagenumber=7

As said in the other thread of this conversation, it is actually not copied
into matroska, thus being mosu's fault (although... not exactly, as the file
produced by SubLog extractor IS borked).

> I had another problem: SubLog Extractor sometimes made "noisy" short
> lines around the real subs.
> Now I saw the similar (noisy) short lines in your sample too.

Could you send me a sample screenshot with what you believe are these "noisy
lines"? Because I spent some 12 hours debugging SubLog to find that &*(*)
bloody error in RLE encoding that did this.

Yusaku





From Liisachan at faireal.net  Fri Dec 26 12:16:03 2003
From: Liisachan at faireal.net (Liisachan)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 20:16:03 +0900
Subject: [Matroska-general] Re: VobSub SSA subtitles in matroska
In-Reply-To: <bsh3e3$oqd$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <bsgoq8$eiv$1@sea.gmane.org> <3FEC0CAA.4090409@faireal.net>
	<bsh3e3$oqd$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <3FEC1873.9000809@faireal.net>

Yusaku wrote:

>>Actually, i tried your method too a little while ago,
>>Did you read this?
>>http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65969
>>    
>>
>
>Nope... Hmmm... that's... unorthodox way :). Well, at least this way you
>save the colors ^_^.
>
>  
>
Obviously what i did was not a good way, but I didn't know any other ways.
That's why I was so impressed to see your sample today.
I know this conversion is not too easy.


>As said in the other thread of this conversation, it is actually not copied
>into matroska, thus being mosu's fault (although... not exactly, as the file
>produced by SubLog extractor IS borked).
>
>  
>
I see. Hmm

>>I had another problem: SubLog Extractor sometimes made "noisy" short
>>lines around the real subs.
>>Now I saw the similar (noisy) short lines in your sample too.
>>    
>>
>
>Could you send me a sample screenshot with what you believe are these "noisy
>lines"? Because I spent some 12 hours debugging SubLog to find that &*(*)
>bloody error in RLE encoding that did this.
>
>  
>
Here.
http://matroska.at.infoseek.co.jp/mew.jpg
Or you added these lines on purpose?

Liisachan


From yusaku at anime.cz  Fri Dec 26 12:19:29 2003
From: yusaku at anime.cz (Yusaku)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 20:19:29 +0900
Subject: [Matroska-general] Re: Re: VobSub SSA subtitles in matroska
References: <bsgoq8$eiv$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<3FEC0CAA.4090409@faireal.net><bsh3e3$oqd$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<3FEC1873.9000809@faireal.net>
Message-ID: <bsh5g3$r1k$1@sea.gmane.org>

> Here.
> http://matroska.at.infoseek.co.jp/mew.jpg
> Or you added these lines on purpose?

Yeah, on purpose, at the end of each line there's a "|||" (*whew* ^_^)

Yusaku





From moritz at bunkus.org  Fri Dec 26 15:16:46 2003
From: moritz at bunkus.org (Moritz Bunkus)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 15:16:46 +0100
Subject: [Matroska-general] VobSub SSA subtitles in matroska
In-Reply-To: <bsgoq8$eiv$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <bsgoq8$eiv$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20031226141645.GG26077@bunkus.org>

Heya,

sounds intrigueing ;)

> Notes: Mosu: could you losen up a little on the MPEG2 parsing? VobSub will
> not complain about wrong contents of PS packets, but mkvmerge does complain
> about "Unsupported MPEG level" or something like that...

Huh? Are you using an older version of mkvtoolnix? I've replaced the SPU
packet parser one or two versions back (the current version is 0.7.9),
and there's no such warning/error message in my sources anymore.

Mosu

-- 
If Darl McBride was in charge, he'd probably make marriage
unconstitutional too, since clearly it de-emphasizes the commercial
nature of normal human interaction, and probably is a major impediment
to the commercial growth of prostitution. - Linus Torvalds


From tbavoil at yahoo.fr  Sat Dec 27 15:24:57 2003
From: tbavoil at yahoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?q?Thomas=20Bavoil?=)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 15:24:57 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [Matroska-general] server pack
Message-ID: <20031227142457.14539.qmail@web10409.mail.yahoo.com>

Salut

j'ai t?l?charg? des fichier mkv

je suis tomb? sur votre site pour comprendre et lire
ce nouveau type de fichier et votre server pour
t?l?charger l'ensemble pack est off.

Deplus, que faire avec le filtre direct show ? ce
n'est qu'un fichier texte.

Merci pour votre aide.

_________________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran?ais !
Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com


From ploum at mitose.net  Sat Dec 27 15:45:23 2003
From: ploum at mitose.net (Ploum)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 15:45:23 +0100
Subject: [Matroska-general] server pack
In-Reply-To: <20031227142457.14539.qmail@web10409.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20031227142457.14539.qmail@web10409.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3FED9B03.8070205@mitose.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Thomas Bavoil wrote:
| Salut
|
| j'ai t?l?charg? des fichier mkv
|
| je suis tomb? sur votre site pour comprendre et lire
| ce nouveau type de fichier et votre server pour
| t?l?charger l'ensemble pack est off.
|
| Deplus, que faire avec le filtre direct show ? ce
| n'est qu'un fichier texte.
|
| Merci pour votre aide.

Un conseil rapide ? Utilise VideoLan pour regarder tes vid?os ! Tu
n'auras plus besoin d'installer des codes ou quoi que ce soit :

http://videolan.org/vlc/


sous Windows, il y'a d'autre bon lecteur de vid?o comme MediaPlayerClassic.

Bon, si tu veux n?anmoins r?ellement utiliser un lecteur utilisant
Direct show (beeek... :( ), il suffit d'installer cet exe :

http://matroska.free.fr/packs/Matroska_Pack_Full_v1.0.1.exe

Mais tu peux honn?tement oublier WMP ;-)

Ploum
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQE/7ZsCMvYGdShAWjgRAgY1AJ9twdB26S2lGZiKKzxlXM3scdNrkwCcD2xp
nOdTqZzqpV4Finp4ZcHuWOg=
=Mohe
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From yusaku at anime.cz  Sun Dec 28 11:13:16 2003
From: yusaku at anime.cz (Yusaku)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 19:13:16 +0900
Subject: [Matroska-general] Re: VobSub SSA subtitles in matroska
References: <bsgoq8$eiv$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <bsmabu$lab$1@sea.gmane.org>

http://www.anime.cz/s2v

Version 1.0 released

Yusaku





From paul at msn.com  Mon Dec 29 09:09:44 2003
From: paul at msn.com (Paul Bryson)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 02:09:44 -0600
Subject: [Matroska-general] Matroska website without CVS URLs
Message-ID: <bsoneu$cp2$1@sea.gmane.org>

Cyt0plas just wrote a new index.html for matroska.corecodec.org (where
www.matroska.org points to) that searches the local web server for the URL, and
if it can't find it will load it out of CVS.  So now we can use:
http://matroska.corecodec.org/technical/specs/index.html
instead of:
http://cvs.corecodec.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/*checkout*/matroska/doc/website/technical/specs/index.html

Shorter, more readable URLs are always nice.


Pamel





From chris at matroska.org  Wed Dec 31 00:09:40 2003
From: chris at matroska.org (Christian HJ Wiesner)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 00:09:40 +0100
Subject: [Matroska-general] Guide change for matroska going 1.0 ?
Message-ID: <3FF205B4.3060509@matroska.org>


Hi Liisachan,

you know i am a big fan of your work. However, reading the matroska 
Guides on http://ld-anime.faireal.net/guide/matroska-en , it still says :


        Matroska is still in beta-testing.

Despite all the promising features, Matroska is still not a practical 
format to use at the moment. As of 7 June 2003, Matroska is still in the 
beta stage (version 0.4.x.) Since Matroska has not stablized yet, OGM is 
still the practical and realistic format to use.


Please understand that we are now in the process of freezing the 
container for a 1.0 release, and are leaving beta stage soon. Could you 
then maybe change the Guides accordingly ?

Thanks and all the best for 2004

Christian
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