From chris at matroska.org Thu Apr 10 11:48:11 2003 From: chris at matroska.org (Christian HJ Wiesner) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 11:48:11 +0200 Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Matroska In-Reply-To: <000601c2f1e9$f3d08c00$aca35982@chnappo> References: <000601c2f1e9$f3d08c00$aca35982@chnappo> Message-ID: <3E953DDB.8010709@matroska.org> Hi Menno, sorry about the late reply, i am currently in China for 2 weeks on bussiness, and couldnt check my email earlier ( for some stupid reason my domaine name doesnt resolve properly in the Chinese DNS server, so i had to fiddle a bit :-( ) Menno Bakker wrote: >Hi Christian, > >IIRC you send me an email a long time ago about supporting Matroska, didn't >really have time to look at it then. But at the moment I'm working for Ahead >(Nero) and they asked me to investigate if it would be useful to support >Matroska in Nero (and other upcoming products). > > We are glad that our small project caught your interest, rest assured we will do anything to support you on this. The email i was sending you that time, IIRC, was to raise your interest for a new Universal Codec API called UCI ( Universal Codec Interface ), started by a US fellow named Alex ' Foogod' Stewart. We were pretty excited about UCI at that time and i hoped to get some comments from you that could be useful with respect to audio, as Alex himself is more skilled in video related things. Very unfortunately it seems that UCI is dead, there hasnt been any update of the existing libuci code or the specs, also Alex Stewart wont even respond to emails from other people wanting to help administrating the project while he cant work on it, so it seems it bound to die soon. We havent come up with an alternative solution to UCI yet, the reason we were supporting it from our container project was that we had done some first work on making our own API and soon realized what a huge task that is, so we were pretty happy somebody with a good background in MPEG and video compression in general was making such a codec API so we could use it. Of course there is no necessity for such a codec API to be able to write/read spec compliant matroska files, but one day we wnat to be able to overcome the limitations of the old VfW and ACM codec APIs on Windows, and as this will be an opensource approach we of course want to make it x-platform from the very start, like we did with matroska ( formerly : MCF ). Now, concerning your question about if it was useful for Nero to support matroska . As i see it there are 3 pontential uses for matroska from Nero : 1. Reading matroska files for transmuxing the video or audio content from it into MP4 container ( if compatible ), creating real MPEG4 compliant files 2. Creating and burning matroska mode2 form2 video and/or audio files, similar to VCD/S-VCD ( 795 MB on 80 mins, EDC/ECC on file level for all important stuff like headers, etc. ) but giving much more options with respect to subtitles, menues, etc. 3. Writing MPEG4 video with non-MPEG4 compliant audio compression formats ( such as Vorbis ) into a general use open standard container, as an existing and working alternative to Ogg/OGM, if there are plans to do so 4. Allowing the user to pack a complete album ( Music CD ) into a single file, even using different compression formats and sampliung rates, and also attaching lyrics as either subtitles or attached files Here my estimation of what is useful for Ahead : At 1. : This is fully depending on the acceptance of matroska by the users, and we wont have any illusion about how long it may take until people will really stop using AVI. Fortunately i do have pretty good personal with Mr. Avery Lee, the congenial developer of Virtualdub, and although Avery hasnt said anything in public yet we still have high hopes he will add matroska reading, writing and capturing support to official Virtualdub one day, giving our container a big push for sure. At 2. : This is where i see the biggest benefit for Nero, being a burning application in very first instance. Right now we have to create Cue/Bin files with Mode2CD maker ( http://xcd.sf.net ) first and burn them in Nero to have mode2 form2 CDs offering more discspace, i was dreaming already about a Nero matroska plugin so we could create them like we can do with VCD/S-VCDs already today, but allowing *EVERY* supported audio and video codec ( and we plan to support them all ;-) ) to be used in the file, every resolution, framerate ( even variable ), sampling rate, etc. . In a next step Nero could also have a matroska menue creation plugin, so people could start making menues for their MPEG4 files ..... a dream really, to good to be true :-) !! In a first mode2 form2 implementation it was certainly enough to allow a big matroska file ( max. 795 MB ) and burn in in mode2 form2, a more specialized plugin ( with sourcecode from us ) would be able to make more than that, for example by filling available space ( say the file is 780 MB ) with additional EDC/ECC ( FEC, like Solomon-Reed )elements, so that the 795 MB are fully used and optimal protection of the file and the track/block headers is given. At 3. : Dont know if you have any plans to allow this, i know there are Vorbis plugins for Nero, but i dont know if you plan to support file creation also. We always hear that Xiph people themselves plan to allow MPEG4 video in Ogg with the upcoming Theora implementation, but they dont announce anything in public, so this is just guessing. The current OGM container implementation made by Tobias Waldvogel based on Ogg and VfW/DShow is bound to die IMHO, as there is no work being done on the container for months, and all people understanding it and having created tools for OGM file creation are now team members of matroska :-) ! At 4. : matroska will allow a couple of nice things to be done for audio users also, and be it just to help with unifying all the different tagging standards ;) ... this is not top priority, but for sure we will work on that one day. >I have a few questions about Matroska: >- How far is WIN32 compatibility? (I read somewhere that it didn't work on >WIN32 yet) > We have - a modified version of Virtualdub that is capable of writing, reading and editing of matroska files, made by Cyrius, the main developer of VirtualdubMod. The link is here http://cyrius.bunkus.org/VirtualDubMod-Matroska-Alpha3.rar : Please goto http://sf.net/projects/virtualdubmod first, download it with all the necessary DLLs, and then replace the virtualdub.exe with the one you find in the link. Cyrius is certainly one of the strongest contributor to our project, he was adding OGM support to VirtualdubMod also and had certain his experiences with Ogg, especially with respect to editing the files ( ;-) ), so i feel he prefers matroska also. Currently he is in the process of cleaning up the complete sourcecode of VirtualdubMod, implementing all the changes that Avery had introduced with Vdub 1.5.x , and making the OGM and matroska support modules completely new and from scratch. Pls. note that there is a bug in the audio handling still ( we know about it already ), so you wont be able to open matroska files with audio in matroskadub right now, this will be resolved in the new version after the cleanup. We also have a working DirectShow parser now, but its crashing after 10 seconds, can only read DivX video and doesnt support audio yet :-) !! Reason for this is that Jan 'myFUN' Schlenker, our DShow parser developer, was on vacation for 3 weeks when libmatroska was released, so we are a bit behind on development now but hope to have a working alpha version soon . >- Am I right in stating that supporting just the Matroska file format, >automatically the codecs inside are supported? E.g. codec support is >transparent? Or do we need to read from the Matroska file and then run the >decoder seperately? > Well, if we had the new, powerful opensource codec API already then our plan was to call external plugins with this API, both for encoding ( from Virtualdub ) and decoding ( from our DShow parser ). But as UCI seems to have come to a halt and our own solution is not existing yet, we have to find other ways as an interims solution ( for Windows, Linux is much easier, libavcodec does it ): - For MPEG4 video we will call any existing DirectShow filter that is capable of decoding MPEG4. Note that we can differentiate between MPEG4 Simple, Simple Advanced and Advanced Profile from matroska, we still have to define a way how to find out what FourCC's had to be used for each profile ( like 'dx50' and 'xvid' for SAP and 'divx' for SP ) and then have a match table hardcoded in our parser. - For MPEG1/2 video we do the same, we call any existing, installed DShow filter for playback, same goes for MP2/3 audio - Vorbis, MPC ( musepack ), FLAC will be hardcoded into the matroska DShow parser. This is not a nice solution, but we dont have any other sensible choice right now, at least until somebody makes nice and clean DShow filters for them. - In ACM compatibility mode we just call the ACM codec, same goes for VfW, DShow and QT compatibility modes >I could look at the specs myself, but you probably know, >so that's much easier :) > Sure, i am glad you give me the chance to point out project out to you >- Is it possible license-wise? It's LGPL? Then it's no problem I guess. > Well, no, unfortunately this is a little bit more complicated, but we'll find a solution here for sure. To avoid project forks or companies like M$ stealing our work, we decided to dual license our library code under both GPL and QPL, and did not use a L-GPL or BSD type license like Xiph do with libogg. Of course, the specs are fully open to any company wanting to support matroska with a self made implementation, writing their own libraries, but i understand this may not be an option for you due to time and compatibility constraints. Now, the QPL license does allow us to give commercial licenses of our library sourcecode to any company, and its our decision what the conditions are for this. I will discuss with Steve, Cyrius and Mosu, the main coders of the library, about the possibility to give Ahead a commercial license of our code, at no cost, but with a time limit ( like 5 years ? ). Alternatively you had to release your plugin sourcecode under either a QPL or a GPL license, or using both license types. >If you can give me more reasons why Ahead should bring support for Matroska, >please let me know. Greetings, Menno > > Sure ! Because we are such nice people :-) . Honestly, i hope the list given above does give you some 'ammunition' , but if you guys decide to wait a bit until the container is actually used then its fine with us also .... Best regards Christian http://www.matroska.org From steve.lhomme at free.fr Tue Apr 1 14:36:43 2003 From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 14:36:43 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [matroska-general] New plugin system from GMedia Message-ID: <1049200603.3e8987db54d9d@imp.free.fr> Here is an interresting article on a new plugin architecture/system. It is developped by GMedia, who already make good software synthesizers. http://www.gmediamusic.com/tab.html I think we could reuse some part of it like the ECL, IDOR, GPP, RCB and RUG. I may contact them to have more informations on the availability of these systems. http://www.matroska.org From chris at matroska.org Tue Apr 1 21:59:35 2003 From: chris at matroska.org (Christian HJ Wiesner) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 21:59:35 +0200 Subject: [matroska-general] matroska container sold to IBM Message-ID: <3E89EFA7.9040003@matroska.org> Hi all, i have some great news to spread today, and i am indeed extremely happy that i have the honour of doing so : The matroska project, including all source code and the main specification, by signed contract dated 31st March 2003, was sold to the International Bussiness Machine Corporation ( IBM ), New Orchard Road, Armonk, NY 10504, USA. . My thanks goes to Dan 'Metaboy' Marlin from the Corecodec team for making the initial contact, Dan, without you this would have not been possible. IBM will convert the matroska project and all libraries into a closed source format, but make the binaries of the library publically available for non-commercial usage, together with an API to be able to read/write matroska files from all applications on different OSes. An arrangement was made with all active developers to make it possible to allow a changing of the existing GPL/QPL dual licensing system. After months of hard negotiations there can be no doubt that one of the first commercial license takers of matroska will be the Matsushita Corporation, Tokyo, Japan, chosing matroska as their main container format for an upcoming proprietary blue laser DVD standard to be released by Panasonic and some of their licensees on the new standard, in an attempt to avoid the domination of the Windows Media Video 9 (TM) standard from Micorosoft (R) for next generations HDTV video. Panasonic already announced they will use a wavelet based video codec called WARP, created by the IBM video compression department around the well known codec expert Mr. Toby Hudon ( performing wavelet on 512 consecutive frames, and on every frame itself ), and to use the musepack audio compression format ( MPC ) for audio. I sincerely hope that all of you will see the big advantage for the opensource audio and video community in undertaking this step, as from now on there will be one new standard a/v container, in possession of one of the biggest computer companies of the world, but fully available for the community. Best regards from Hawaii Christian http://www.matroska.org http://www.matroska.org From Paul at msn.com Tue Apr 1 17:17:03 2003 From: Paul at msn.com (Pamel) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 09:17:03 -0600 Subject: [matroska-general] Re: matroska container sold to IBM References: <3E89EFA7.9040003@matroska.org> Message-ID: *Laughing out loud* I hope that everyone caught that it is April Fools day today. Pamel "Christian HJ Wiesner" wrote > > Hi all, > > i have some great news to spread today, and i am indeed extremely happy > that i have the honour of doing so : > > The matroska project, including all source code and the main > specification, by signed contract dated 31st March 2003, was sold to the > International Bussiness Machine Corporation ( IBM ), New Orchard Road, http://www.matroska.org From marlena at 1000ad.net Tue Apr 1 18:36:54 2003 From: marlena at 1000ad.net (Marlena Deren) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 10:36:54 -0600 Subject: [matroska-general] Re: matroska container sold to IBM References: <3E89EFA7.9040003@matroska.org> Message-ID: <003001c2f86c$e8399740$6501a8c0@marlena> > *Laughing out loud* I hope that everyone caught that it is April Fools day > today. I read your message first and it spoiled the joke for me because I completely forgot it's April Fools, however, it will probably save me from numerous pranks that my friends like to play on me this day :-) -Marlena ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pamel" To: Cc: ; ; ; ; ; ; ; <0 at main.gmane.org> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 9:17 AM Subject: [matroska-general] Re: matroska container sold to IBM > *Laughing out loud* I hope that everyone caught that it is April Fools day > today. > > > Pamel > > "Christian HJ Wiesner" wrote > > > > Hi all, > > > > i have some great news to spread today, and i am indeed extremely happy > > that i have the honour of doing so : > > > > The matroska project, including all source code and the main > > specification, by signed contract dated 31st March 2003, was sold to the > > International Bussiness Machine Corporation ( IBM ), New Orchard Road, > > > > http://www.matroska.org > > http://www.matroska.org From segfault at club-internet.fr Tue Apr 1 19:23:18 2003 From: segfault at club-internet.fr (Daniel Caujolle-Bert) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 19:23:18 +0200 Subject: [matroska-general] Re: [xine-user] matroska container sold to IBM In-Reply-To: <3E89EFA7.9040003@matroska.org> References: <3E89EFA7.9040003@matroska.org> Message-ID: <3E89CB06.8020600@club-internet.fr> Christian HJ Wiesner wrote: > > Hi all, > [snip annoying announce] > > Christian > http://www.matroska.org so, now, stop bother us with closed source stuffs. thanks. -- 73's de Daniel, F1RMB. -=- Daniel Caujolle-Bert -=- segfault at club-internet.fr -=- -=- http://naboo.homelinux.org -=- http://www.matroska.org From segfault at club-internet.fr Tue Apr 1 19:23:18 2003 From: segfault at club-internet.fr (Daniel Caujolle-Bert) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 19:23:18 +0200 Subject: [matroska-general] Re: [xine-user] matroska container sold to IBM In-Reply-To: <3E89EFA7.9040003@matroska.org> References: <3E89EFA7.9040003@matroska.org> Message-ID: <3E89CB06.8020600@club-internet.fr> Christian HJ Wiesner wrote: > > Hi all, > [snip annoying announce] > > Christian > http://www.matroska.org so, now, stop bother us with closed source stuffs. thanks. -- 73's de Daniel, F1RMB. -=- Daniel Caujolle-Bert -=- segfault at club-internet.fr -=- -=- http://naboo.homelinux.org -=- ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by: ValueWeb: Dedicated Hosting for just $79/mo with 500 GB of bandwidth! No other company gives more support or power for your dedicated server http://click.atdmt.com/AFF/go/sdnxxaff00300020aff/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ xine-user mailing list xine-user at lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xine-user http://www.matroska.org From chris at matroska.org Tue Apr 1 21:59:35 2003 From: chris at matroska.org (Christian HJ Wiesner) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 21:59:35 +0200 Subject: [matroska-general] [xine-user] matroska container sold to IBM Message-ID: <3E89EFA7.9040003@matroska.org> Hi all, i have some great news to spread today, and i am indeed extremely happy that i have the honour of doing so : The matroska project, including all source code and the main specification, by signed contract dated 31st March 2003, was sold to the International Bussiness Machine Corporation ( IBM ), New Orchard Road, Armonk, NY 10504, USA. . My thanks goes to Dan 'Metaboy' Marlin from the Corecodec team for making the initial contact, Dan, without you this would have not been possible. IBM will convert the matroska project and all libraries into a closed source format, but make the binaries of the library publically available for non-commercial usage, together with an API to be able to read/write matroska files from all applications on different OSes. An arrangement was made with all active developers to make it possible to allow a changing of the existing GPL/QPL dual licensing system. After months of hard negotiations there can be no doubt that one of the first commercial license takers of matroska will be the Matsushita Corporation, Tokyo, Japan, chosing matroska as their main container format for an upcoming proprietary blue laser DVD standard to be released by Panasonic and some of their licensees on the new standard, in an attempt to avoid the domination of the Windows Media Video 9 (TM) standard from Micorosoft (R) for next generations HDTV video. Panasonic already announced they will use a wavelet based video codec called WARP, created by the IBM video compression department around the well known codec expert Mr. Toby Hudon ( performing wavelet on 512 consecutive frames, and on every frame itself ), and to use the musepack audio compression format ( MPC ) for audio. I sincerely hope that all of you will see the big advantage for the opensource audio and video community in undertaking this step, as from now on there will be one new standard a/v container, in possession of one of the biggest computer companies of the world, but fully available for the community. Best regards from Hawaii Christian http://www.matroska.org ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by: ValueWeb: Dedicated Hosting for just $79/mo with 500 GB of bandwidth! No other company gives more support or power for your dedicated server http://click.atdmt.com/AFF/go/sdnxxaff00300020aff/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ xine-user mailing list xine-user at lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xine-user http://www.matroska.org From melanson at pcisys.net Tue Apr 1 22:05:19 2003 From: melanson at pcisys.net (Mike Melanson) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 13:05:19 -0700 (MST) Subject: [matroska-general] Re: [xine-user] matroska container sold to IBM In-Reply-To: <3E89EFA7.9040003@matroska.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Christian HJ Wiesner wrote: ^^^^^ > created by the IBM video compression department around the well known > codec expert Mr. Toby Hudon ( performing wavelet on 512 consecutive > frames, and on every frame itself ), and to use the musepack audio Hmm, your April Fool's joke had me up through the part about Hudon's wavelet codec. -- -Mike Melanson http://www.matroska.org From melanson at pcisys.net Tue Apr 1 22:05:19 2003 From: melanson at pcisys.net (Mike Melanson) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 13:05:19 -0700 (MST) Subject: [matroska-general] Re: [xine-user] matroska container sold to IBM In-Reply-To: <3E89EFA7.9040003@matroska.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Christian HJ Wiesner wrote: ^^^^^ > created by the IBM video compression department around the well known > codec expert Mr. Toby Hudon ( performing wavelet on 512 consecutive > frames, and on every frame itself ), and to use the musepack audio Hmm, your April Fool's joke had me up through the part about Hudon's wavelet codec. -- -Mike Melanson ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by: ValueWeb: Dedicated Hosting for just $79/mo with 500 GB of bandwidth! No other company gives more support or power for your dedicated server http://click.atdmt.com/AFF/go/sdnxxaff00300020aff/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ xine-user mailing list xine-user at lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xine-user http://www.matroska.org From steve.lhomme at free.fr Wed Apr 2 10:28:14 2003 From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 10:28:14 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [matroska-general] Qt vs GTK Message-ID: <1049272094.3e8a9f1ec905a@imp.free.fr> An interresting study of a simple case. http://www.staikos.net/~staikos/whyqt/ Also this is a bit flawed because I have never met a developper who cost 75.000 USD ! Only half of that. But at list the "real" support you get with Qt is priceless. http://www.matroska.org From christian at matroska.org Wed Apr 2 22:39:56 2003 From: christian at matroska.org (ChristianHJW) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 22:39:56 +0200 Subject: [matroska-general] Re: matroska container sold to IBM' In-Reply-To: <20030402140346.GH14595@web.de> References: <1049230744.14743.203.camel@pitanga.ldhs.cetuc.puc-rio.br> <20030402140346.GH14595@web.de> Message-ID: <3E8B4A9C.1040103@matroska.org> Guenter Bartsch wrote: > hallo christian, > > On 04/02, ChristianHJW wrote: >>my apologies to everybody why tapped in it, but in fact it was Segher >>Boessenkools annual April 1st joke about a wokring implementation of >>Vorbis peeling that inspired me to do this ... sorry if anybody got >>angry about it. > > humm - personally i still think your post was one of the best 1st april > jokes i read yesterday :) > keep up the good work, > guenter Thanks Guenter, we try our best. BTW, i was talking to Moritz 'mosu' Bunkus today on email, and he plans ( hopes ) to ( be able to ) release his matroska Linux tools ( muxer and player, unfortunately with a mplayer playback patch, not Xine ;-) ) maybe next week, of course including all sources. And this was *NO* April's fool joke now .. ;-) ... Regards Christian http://www.matroska.org From christian at matroska.org Wed Apr 2 22:39:56 2003 From: christian at matroska.org (ChristianHJW) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 22:39:56 +0200 Subject: [matroska-general] [xine-user] Re: matroska container sold to IBM' In-Reply-To: <20030402140346.GH14595@web.de> References: <1049230744.14743.203.camel@pitanga.ldhs.cetuc.puc-rio.br> <20030402140346.GH14595@web.de> Message-ID: <3E8B4A9C.1040103@matroska.org> Guenter Bartsch wrote: > hallo christian, > > On 04/02, ChristianHJW wrote: >>my apologies to everybody why tapped in it, but in fact it was Segher >>Boessenkools annual April 1st joke about a wokring implementation of >>Vorbis peeling that inspired me to do this ... sorry if anybody got >>angry about it. > > humm - personally i still think your post was one of the best 1st april > jokes i read yesterday :) > keep up the good work, > guenter Thanks Guenter, we try our best. BTW, i was talking to Moritz 'mosu' Bunkus today on email, and he plans ( hopes ) to ( be able to ) release his matroska Linux tools ( muxer and player, unfortunately with a mplayer playback patch, not Xine ;-) ) maybe next week, of course including all sources. And this was *NO* April's fool joke now .. ;-) ... Regards Christian ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by: ValueWeb: Dedicated Hosting for just $79/mo with 500 GB of bandwidth! No other company gives more support or power for your dedicated server http://click.atdmt.com/AFF/go/sdnxxaff00300020aff/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ xine-user mailing list xine-user at lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xine-user http://www.matroska.org From chris at matroska.org Thu Apr 3 07:47:46 2003 From: chris at matroska.org (Christian HJ Wiesner) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 07:47:46 +0200 Subject: [matroska-general] I will clean the matroska developers list soon - point of discussion Message-ID: <3E8BCB02.4010103@matroska.org> Hi, i would like to start a discussion here with some of the new team members that recently joined, especially developers. Are we ( the matroska core team ) doing something wrong ? Do we not integrate you into the matroska development process enough ? Iit seems that the advertising on sourceforge brought a couple of people to the project who were interested to help out, one way or another, but why do most of them just disappear after some time, in most cases without even a note ? How Tam and Santiago dropped me a note saying they cant contribute to the project, mainly because of real life issues .. thats fine with me. That way they dont get assigned to important tasks, blocking the whole project. After all we aer not a commercial project, and nobody does owe us anything. If we get help we are happy, if not, just tell us like the two have done. So now here is the list of devs that wnated to help and never showed up again : animesh : sad enough, it seems he is a very talented coder and i am sure he must have had some working code already, unfortunately he didnt upload it, and never joined the IRC channel so we could have been building up a personal relationship. As he didnt reply to any of my emails asking about the availability of the code he has, maybe something really bad happened so he cant read his emails anymore ? Henry Poon : He said he wanted to learn, i put him into the streaming server project together with How Tam, but as mentioned above this project never really started as How Man couldnt do it, and since then he never replied on any of my emails ? amitlimaye : a nice email about helping, and nothing since then aymen : haoujey, i know you started compiling the lib ... did you give up ? No time anymore ? Thats ok, but please tell me ... raghav : wanted to look at the MPC sources, ages ago ..... thana : I am sorry, i know you were expecting a Java implementation of libmatroska .. but spyder is focussing on C now :) .... J. Haman : his offer to help must have been months ago, so i guess he cant do anything to contribute Again my question, are we doing anything wrong ? Does it appear to you the project is badly organized, so you loose interest to help ? Or are the RLI's the important factor, means you overestimated the time it takes to contribute something sensible ? I just would like to know, so we can improve for the future in this respect. Please drop me a short note ( even private, if you dont wnat to write to the list ). In any case, the people listed above will be removed from the developers list on sf.net shortly, unless i hear from them stating otherwise. Best regards Christian http://www.matroska.org From steve.lhomme at free.fr Fri Apr 4 10:03:12 2003 From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 10:03:12 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [matroska-general] CVS Move Message-ID: <1049443392.3e8d3c40e8ff6@imp.free.fr> It's been done yesterday but I only have time to inform you now. I've finally moved the CVS of Matroska on cvs.corecorec.org due to repeated technical problems on SourceForge. So this is now the one and only official CVS. The one on SF will not be updated (by me). The CoreCodec system works exactly the same as on SourceForge so you probably won't have any problem for the switch. The current CVS contains the changes I made during the last days including some fixes after the libebml/libmatroska split. I also removed the need for the WRITE_EVEN_UNSET_DATA flag. That means that if you add an EBML tag and you don't initialise the data you'll get an assert. That's to make sure there is no buggy EBML/Matroska files floating. So be carefull when you write your (writing) applications. The matroska-cvs ML doesn't seem to work yet even though syncmail seems to be called and executed properly. Maybe Cytoplas could have a look an what is wrong when the email is sent ? http://www.matroska.org From steve.lhomme at free.fr Fri Apr 4 20:30:51 2003 From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 21:30:51 +0300 Subject: [matroska-general] Re: CVS Move In-Reply-To: <1049443392.3e8d3c40e8ff6@imp.free.fr> References: <1049443392.3e8d3c40e8ff6@imp.free.fr> Message-ID: <3E8DCF5B.9050608@free.fr> I just added the specs in this repository. This will also be the official place to makes changes from now on. (I'm going to update the link in the SF website) http://www.matroska.org From chris at matroska.org Fri Apr 4 15:10:20 2003 From: chris at matroska.org (Christian HJ Wiesner) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 15:10:20 +0200 Subject: [matroska-general] Re: I will clean the matroska developers list soon - point of discussion In-Reply-To: <8286.1049429652@www17.gmx.net> References: <3E8BCB02.4010103@matroska.org> <8286.1049429652@www17.gmx.net> Message-ID: <3E8D843C.9020700@matroska.org> Hi Amit, good to hear from you !! amit limaye wrote: >Chris > Just been tied up with things here secondly i want to help with the >video codec development itself was reading up MPeg standards and that is why i >have been staying silent nothing much to contribute >was also taking a look at RTP/RTSP since we talk of streaming. i hear abt >the streaming server as well >who is leading this task ? i have developed one for a client once look at >www.livecom.co.jp >the Netlive product they sell.might be interested but i will cant do this >alone has somebody started on this > >As i already said that it will be some time b4 i catch up with u people on >MPEG or any video Compression technoque u plan to use.streaming server i can >start contributing > Great !! The streaming server project hasnt been starting yet, How Tam who wnated to look into this project informed he cant contribute for the time being as he is caught in private life issues. If you have done such a solution already you would be the perfect man to do it i guess ?? Where to start : - icecast/shoutcast ( www.xiph.org ) - VLS ( http://videolan.org ) - Real / Helix ( http://helixcommunity.org ) I have no idea what project might be a better basis to look at this, maybe robux4 can comment. >another problem has been my dial up from Home has been giving problems. I m >not able to connect at all. >-SIGTERM >amit > Sorry to hear that, i hope you will be able to solve the probs soon ( get a new ISP ;- ) ) .... BTW : our project doesnt really go into the details of video compression ( DCT, iDCT, Motion Compensation, etc. ), we just have to know how each codec will deliver the packets so we can store in our container, and how to read them from the file so that the decoder can play the files .... Christian http://www.matroska.org From Golddragongt at cs.com Fri Apr 4 15:18:10 2003 From: Golddragongt at cs.com (Golddragongt at cs.com) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 08:18:10 EST Subject: [matroska-general] Site Design Message-ID: Hey, I did update the page at http://www28.brinkster.com/golddragongt/sample.html . I used two embedded fonts. Hopefully, you can see them. Otherwise, Microsoft has failed again :( [ I used Microsoft's WEFT to create the embedded fonts ]. I'll probably work on the news page next. The system will be as follows: The news page will display a table, data binded to an XML file. The XML file contains all the news articles we want site clients to be able to access. The table should display the news topic, an abstract, and a follow up link. I am pretty much ready to create the actual pages. If you give me an OK on this sample page, I'll recode it (place the styles in individual CSS files, data bind certain sections to XML files, etc...). ~Golddragongt~ http://www.matroska.org From steve.lhomme at free.fr Fri Apr 4 15:26:00 2003 From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 15:26:00 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [matroska-general] Guide on TV capture Message-ID: <1049462760.3e8d87e898146@imp.free.fr> I just saw this interresting guide : http://arstechnica.com/guide/audio-visual/videocapturing/vidcap-1.html Is VDubMod also capable of starting a capture at a defined time ? http://www.matroska.org From steve.lhomme at free.fr Fri Apr 4 16:09:53 2003 From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 16:09:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [matroska-general] A standard DRM system ? Message-ID: <1049465393.3e8d9231dbba3@imp.free.fr> http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.asp?RelatedID=3646 We'll have to make sure Matroska can suit in that area (too). http://www.matroska.org From Marlena at mail.1000ad.net Fri Apr 4 16:19:24 2003 From: Marlena at mail.1000ad.net (Marlena Deren) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 08:19:24 -0600 Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Site Design Message-ID: <200304040819.AA24510612@mail.1000ad.net> Hi, I checked out the design and all of the subtle changes that you did made the page look much better, especially the background, and the two different font types are visible. I'll take a screen shot and match the logos for the space and color, most likely the strokes will be white or some lighter shade of one of the colors on the page to make them visible against the background. Did not have time to work much on anything this week yet. - Marlena ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Golddragongt at cs.com Reply-To: matroska-general at freelists.org Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 08:18:10 EST >Hey, > > I did update the page at >http://www28.brinkster.com/golddragongt/sample.html . > > I used two embedded fonts. Hopefully, you can see them. Otherwise, >Microsoft has failed again :( [ I used Microsoft's WEFT to create the >embedded fonts ]. > > > > I'll probably work on the news page next. The system will be as >follows: > > The news page will display a table, data binded to an XML file. The >XML file contains all the news articles we want site clients to be able to >access. The table should display the news topic, an abstract, and a follow up >link. > > I am pretty much ready to create the actual pages. If you give me an >OK on this sample page, I'll recode it (place the styles in individual CSS >files, data bind certain sections to XML files, etc...). > >~Golddragongt~ > > >http://www.matroska.org > > http://www.matroska.org From Paul at msn.com Sat Apr 5 05:20:56 2003 From: Paul at msn.com (Pamel) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 21:20:56 -0600 Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Site Design References: <200304040819.AA24510612@mail.1000ad.net> Message-ID: "Marlena Deren" wrote > I checked out the design and all of the subtle changes that you did made the page look much better, especially the background, and the two different font types are visible. I found that the background made it hard to read the text. How does everyone else feel about it? Pamel http://www.matroska.org From marlena at 1000ad.net Sat Apr 5 06:05:16 2003 From: marlena at 1000ad.net (Marlena Deren) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 22:05:16 -0600 Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Site Design References: <200304040819.AA24510612@mail.1000ad.net> Message-ID: <002101c2fb28$9154c2b0$6501a8c0@marlena> Are you talking about the white background image or the dark blue? Marlena ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pamel" To: Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 9:20 PM Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Site Design > "Marlena Deren" wrote > > I checked out the design and all of the subtle changes that you did made > the page look much better, especially the background, and the two different > font types are visible. > > I found that the background made it hard to read the text. How does > everyone else feel about it? > > > Pamel > > > > http://www.matroska.org > > http://www.matroska.org From Paul at msn.com Sat Apr 5 17:19:44 2003 From: Paul at msn.com (Pamel) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 09:19:44 -0600 Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Site Design References: <200304040819.AA24510612@mail.1000ad.net> <002101c2fb28$9154c2b0$6501a8c0@marlena> Message-ID: "Marlena Deren" wrote > Are you talking about the white background image or the dark blue? The white background with the images. Pamel http://www.matroska.org From chris at matroska.org Sun Apr 6 10:03:49 2003 From: chris at matroska.org (Christian HJ Wiesner) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 10:03:49 +0200 Subject: [matroska-general] Re: I will clean the matroska developers list soon - point of discussion In-Reply-To: <000e01c2fa92$4617a880$a960dc51@haoujeys8fzge5> References: <3E8BCB02.4010103@matroska.org> <000e01c2fa92$4617a880$a960dc51@haoujeys8fzge5> Message-ID: <3E8FDF65.1070705@matroska.org> Hi Aymen, i just returned from China and dont have much time also, my wife has been alone with the kids for about 2 weeks and needs my support now. Good to hear you are working on the lib, i just hope the changes will be compatible with the latest version of it in the CVS ( that was moved to corecodec.org recently ). Its one good reason to have a short visit in the IRC channel ( like what myFUN is doing ) to get the latest news from the other devs there. Looking forward to meet you there soon Christian aymen wrote: >Hi Chris, I know i've not been on irc for a while, but i'm still working on >the lib, it'll be finished soon. I don't chat on irc those days because i >have much work so i prefer to stay consontrated, and to use my free time >working on the project. >I'll be there soon, when i finish the task, or if i have a problem and need >some help ;). I wish i'm not too slow ! Thanks and have a nice day . >Haoujey > > > > > http://www.matroska.org From marlena at 1000ad.net Sun Apr 6 13:27:24 2003 From: marlena at 1000ad.net (Marlena Deren) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 05:27:24 -0600 Subject: [matroska-general] logos Message-ID: <001301c2fc2f$7ff9e060$6501a8c0@marlena> Hi, I resized the graphics to fit the 50 pixel height, which meant that any text under the logo had to go next to it. I realized that the smaller they got the worse they looked :) especially the ones with thin strokes. I had couple of logos with the Russian text (#s 8-11) that I have not uploaded previously because I was not sure what the word Matroska actually looked like in Russian (ex: 8_A or 8_B?) since the last time I took that language was in 6th grade, also I think that they need some work. http://icarus.uic.edu/~mbudar1/matroska.html Note to whomever is doing other logos (Pamel and SarreqTeryx), please scale them down to 50 pixels or less and add the word "Matroska," whenever you get a chance. - Marlena http://www.matroska.org From Paul at msn.com Sun Apr 6 17:56:48 2003 From: Paul at msn.com (Pamel) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 10:56:48 -0500 Subject: [matroska-general] Re: logos References: <001301c2fc2f$7ff9e060$6501a8c0@marlena> Message-ID: "Marlena Deren" wrote > Note to whomever is doing other logos (Pamel and SarreqTeryx), please scale them down to 50 pixels or less and add the word "Matroska," whenever you get a chance. Done. Here is the image in PNG and PSD, and an 8-bit version with alpha channel in the webpage. I couldn't figure out how to get rid of that white bar underneath.. Note that I couldn't get IE to display the transparency without making it an 8-bit PNG. http://66.25.200.148:81/mcftestvideo/logos/mkva-50x780.png http://66.25.200.148:81/mcftestvideo/logos/mkva-50x780.psd http://66.25.200.148:81/mcftestvideo/logos/matroska.html Pamel http://www.matroska.org From Liisachan at faireal.net Sun Apr 6 18:10:21 2003 From: Liisachan at faireal.net (Liisachan) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 01:10:21 +0900 Subject: [matroska-general] Re: logos In-Reply-To: References: <001301c2fc2f$7ff9e060$6501a8c0@marlena> Message-ID: <3E90516D.7050901@faireal.net> Pamel wrote: >"Marlena Deren" wrote > > >>Note to whomever is doing other logos (Pamel and SarreqTeryx), please >> >> >scale them down to 50 pixels or less and add the word "Matroska," whenever >you get a chance. > >Done. Here is the image in PNG and PSD, and an 8-bit version with alpha >channel in the webpage. I couldn't figure out how to get rid of that white >bar underneath.. > How about changing this code
into:
without breaking? You can add "padding: 0px" too just in case style="background: white; padding: 0px" > Note that I couldn't get IE to display the transparency >without making it an 8-bit PNG. >http://66.25.200.148:81/mcftestvideo/logos/mkva-50x780.png >http://66.25.200.148:81/mcftestvideo/logos/mkva-50x780.psd >http://66.25.200.148:81/mcftestvideo/logos/matroska.html > > >Pamel > > > >http://www.matroska.org > > > > > http://www.matroska.org From marlena at 1000ad.net Sun Apr 6 19:28:48 2003 From: marlena at 1000ad.net (Marlena Deren) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 11:28:48 -0600 Subject: [matroska-general] Re: logos References: <001301c2fc2f$7ff9e060$6501a8c0@marlena> Message-ID: <000e01c2fc61$fcc45df0$6501a8c0@marlena> Pamel, Thanks. I removed the white bar, made it a transparent gift and uploaded to the site with mine (http://www2.uic.edu/~mbudar1/matroska.html). I have noticed that the latest IE is picky about supporting transparent PNGs, even though it was not troublesome in the previous versions, on the other hand, newest Netscape supprisingly displays transparent PNGs pretty well, among other things. I have noticed that people in this group prefer using PNGs :-) Either way, you should not worry about things like transparency for now, unless someone finally makes a choice and decides on one logo, then we can take care of things like that. I like your color variations from the faireal.net but they would not fit the colors on the site as much as B+W do. - Marlena ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pamel" To: Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 9:56 AM Subject: [matroska-general] Re: logos > "Marlena Deren" wrote > > Note to whomever is doing other logos (Pamel and SarreqTeryx), please > scale them down to 50 pixels or less and add the word "Matroska," whenever > you get a chance. > > Done. Here is the image in PNG and PSD, and an 8-bit version with alpha > channel in the webpage. I couldn't figure out how to get rid of that white > bar underneath.. Note that I couldn't get IE to display the transparency > without making it an 8-bit PNG. > http://66.25.200.148:81/mcftestvideo/logos/mkva-50x780.png > http://66.25.200.148:81/mcftestvideo/logos/mkva-50x780.psd > http://66.25.200.148:81/mcftestvideo/logos/matroska.html > > > Pamel > > > > http://www.matroska.org > > http://www.matroska.org From spyder482 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 7 05:26:23 2003 From: spyder482 at yahoo.com (John Cannon) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 22:26:23 -0500 Subject: [matroska-general] I have been added to hdot264 Message-ID: Title says it all. This should help us work closely with them for compatibility purposes. John http://www.matroska.org From chris at matroska.org Mon Apr 7 13:02:17 2003 From: chris at matroska.org (Christian HJ Wiesner) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 13:02:17 +0200 Subject: [matroska-general] Re: I have been added to hdot264 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3E915AB9.5050504@matroska.org> John Cannon wrote: >Title says it all. This should help us work closely with them for >compatibility purposes. >John >http://www.matroska.org > Good news ! This puts a heavy load on your shoulders John, because any other result than matroska becoming the standard container for this project ( instaed of MP4 ;-) ) is now unacceptable :-P ... Christian http://www.matroska.org From pfk at fuchs.offl.uni-jena.de Mon Apr 7 22:19:35 2003 From: pfk at fuchs.offl.uni-jena.de (Frank Klemm) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 22:19:35 +0200 Subject: [matroska-general] Re: =[SPAM?]= I have been added to hdot264 In-Reply-To: ; from spyder482@yahoo.com on Sun, Apr 06, 2003 at 10:26:23PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20030407221935.A1433@fuchs.offl.uni-jena.de> On Sun, Apr 06, 2003 at 10:26:23PM -0500, John Cannon wrote: > > Title says it all. This should help us work closely with them for > compatibility purposes. > I think H.264 becomes a very important codec in the next 1 or 2 years. Not longer! Closely working with them will be a major point for acceptance of a file/streaming format. -- Frank Klemm http://www.matroska.org From blacksun at corecodec.com Thu Apr 10 13:51:58 2003 From: blacksun at corecodec.com (Ludovic "BlackSun" Vialle) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 13:51:58 +0200 Subject: [matroska-general] Re: =[SPAM?]= I have been added to hdot264 In-Reply-To: <20030407221935.A1433@fuchs.offl.uni-jena.de> References: <20030407221935.A1433@fuchs.offl.uni-jena.de> Message-ID: > I think H.264 becomes a very important codec in the next 1 or 2 years. > Not longer! Why not longer ? MPEG-4 implementations is there for years (and the simple advanced profile is kinda new), it will take certainly 1-2 years before the H.264 will be accepted globally and used. well that's my opinion :) http://www.matroska.org From bruce.devlin at snellwilcox.com Mon Apr 7 18:17:49 2003 From: bruce.devlin at snellwilcox.com (bruce.devlin at snellwilcox.com) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 17:17:49 +0100 Subject: [matroska-general] Have you heard of MXF Message-ID: <2300411392@snellwilcox.com> Hello, It looks like your project is very similar to the MXF Open Standards work which is entering its final phases of SMPTE standardisation. There is information on the format at http://www.pro-mpeg.org and http://www.ist-nuggets.tv If your project is still in its early phases, it might be interesting to create Open Source code where there is a large broadcast market demanding it. Please feel free to email me if this is of interest. (I go on vacation in 3 days time and will not be back until mid-may - so be quick !) best regards Bruce Devlin Document controller and co-author of MXF Principal R&I Engineer, Snell & Wilcox, Ltd T: +44 1730 818 714, F: +44 1730 821 199, E: bruce.devlin at snellwilcox.com NUGGETS - using MXF on IP networks, LAN, MAN, WANs. http://www.matroska.org From spyder482 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 7 21:05:49 2003 From: spyder482 at yahoo.com (John Cannon) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 14:05:49 -0500 Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Have you heard of MXF References: <2300411392@snellwilcox.com> Message-ID: Hello, I have looked at MXF and it seems very similar in a few ways but it seems to have a different purpose than ours. You seem to be geared toward broadcast/editing more than general use. Your format seems much less efficient for low datarate transmissions. Our goal is to provide a flexible container format for as many media types as possible while still maintaining a small overhead. I see that your format seems very nice for the editing/authoring of large sequences of high bitrate data. Is there a more formal spec of the actual structure of the files themselves? Your sites seem a bit unclear. We appreciate you letting us know about the existence of your project. We seem to have overlooked it. Please feel free to ask any questions of our format you may have. When I have a more technical specification of your format I will try to point out the differences in the formats and examine the purposes of both further. Regards, John Cannon Matroska Developer spyder482 at matroska.org http://www.matroska.org From spyder at wiesneronline.net Mon Apr 7 21:11:22 2003 From: spyder at wiesneronline.net (John Cannon) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 14:11:22 -0500 Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Have you heard of MXF References: <2300411392@snellwilcox.com> Message-ID: <001701c2fd39$7b518b20$7b88be3f@johnc> Hello, I have looked at MXF and it seems very similar in a few ways but it seems to have a different purpose than ours. You seem to be geared toward broadcast/editing more than general use. Your format seems much less efficient for low datarate transmissions. Our goal is to provide a flexible container format for as many media types as possible while still maintaining a small overhead. I see that your format seems very nice for the editing/authoring of large sequences of high bitrate data. Is there a more formal spec of the actual structure of the files themselves? Your sites seem a bit unclear. We appreciate you letting us know about the existence of your project. We seem to have overlooked it. Please feel free to ask any questions of our format you may have. When I have a more technical specification of your format I will try to point out the differences in the formats and examine the purposes of both further. Regards, John Cannon Matroska Developer spyder482 at matroska.org http://www.matroska.org http://www.matroska.org From steve.lhomme at free.fr Tue Apr 8 12:12:04 2003 From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 12:12:04 +0200 Subject: [matroska-general] AAF support in ProTools Message-ID: <3E92A074.3020002@free.fr> http://www.harmony-central.com/Newp/2003/Pro-Tools-61.html As you can see the new ProTools will support AAF ("the new industry-standard interchange file format for media sequence import/export") in their DigiTranslator 2.0. So AAF is not something that might exist someday. It does now and is supported by one of the most respected/used company in the professional audio area. http://www.matroska.org From chris at matroska.org Wed Apr 9 10:46:41 2003 From: chris at matroska.org (Christian HJ Wiesner) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 10:46:41 +0200 Subject: [matroska-general] Matroska public alpha release date : 1 st May 2003 Message-ID: <3E93DDF1.7000501@matroska.org> Hi all, i am sorry about the very long email and the long list of recipients for this email, but to be honest i lost overview of who is subscribed to the mailing lists and i wanted to make sure you all get this message : The matroska project, with its predecessor/sister project MCF, was started about 2 years ago. Our aim was to build an open standard and open source A/V container project that was flexible and intelligent enough to last for the next 10 years, and to achieve this we did not just hack some code together quickly and release a first alpha into the wild, but instead we were making a lot of considerations about what such a container should be capable of doing, and we also tried to get advice from many different sides, like other opensource multimedia related projects, what they would consider as necessary and what options could convince them to support our container in their OSS projects. After this long time, and believe me it wasnt always easy to take this route, the core dev team of matroska was happy and proud to be able to release a first alpha of libmatroska, the basic input/output library that can be used to read and write matroska files, beginning of this year. This library was greatly accepted from guys like Julien 'Cyrius' Coloos, the main developer of VirtualdubMod, and Moritz 'mosu' Bunkus, and they started to work instantaneously with it, building a great set of tools for both Windows and Linux for matroska file creation and also playback ( Linux ). As a result we are maybe capable of releasing a first set of tested tools soon, maybe even before the launch date named above. So you may ask, what is it about the date that was named in the subject line, the 1st of May ?? Well, unfortunately not all sideprojects are coming along that well. We were maybe a bit naive to believe that every OSS developer out there would stop working on his project immediately, and start implementing matroska support into his tools. But, to be honest, the poor feedback we get from the OSS multimedia world out there is pretty demotivating for us, and we cant explain it at all. Its unacceptable to us that at least 20 - 30 developers in the OSS world are still investing their precious time into hacking strange things into AVI ( like SSA subtitles or DTS audio ), while a library exists allowing them to create matroska files with the very wanted content, but in a spec compliant way. Sure, we have some very good feedback also, like Ronald 'BBB' Bultje from the Gstreamer team announcing he might be able to look at making a Gstreamer plugin for matroska, or Mike Melanson offering to look at supporting at least playback from Xine, Francois 'mmu_man' Revol compiling the mplayer patches for OpenBeOS, etc. But besides that there seems to be not much interest from most other projects out there, and we believ to know why this is : When looking at OGM, the closed source container format based on Ogg ( made by Tobias Waldvogel ), its becoming obvious that the OSS developers only started supporting it after people were actually using it. Its interesting to see in this respect that for doing this there was no nice, clean library, instead the developers looking at it had to more or less reverse engineer the complete container, being major hassle for sure. But they did it, as there were users asking them to support it. As a result of what is said above, we will change our strategy now. Instead of developing matroska to a very stable status on many platforms, and releasing it then to the public, we decided to release whatever we have on 1st of May. This measure is mainly undertaken to help us, the core dev team, to find the motivation again to work hard and even harder on getting matroska used and accepted, and hopefully that way we will also be capable of attracting the interest of other multimedia OSS developers, so they start supporting matroska in their apps, or maybe even contribute code to the main library. There is one thing that may complicate releasing the matroska tools on 1st of May, and that is the missing DirectShow parser for Windows. Without this parser filter it will be impossible to release matroska to a broad audience. Our friend BlackSun had always predicted that this huge task is too much for only one person, and it seems our core developer Jan 'myFUN' Schlenker is currently extremely busy with real life stuff ( job ), so he cant contribute as much as necessary to develop the filter into a working alpha status until 1st May. We therefore created a task force yesterday to assist him in bringing the parser filter into a workable state until then. This task force will consist of 6 additional developers : John 'spyder' Cannon Ludovic 'BlackSun' Vialle ( DShow consultant, TCMP core dev ) Christophe 'Toff' Paris ( DShow consultant, TCMP core dev ) Steve 'robux4' LHomme Jory 'Jcsston' angelfire All of them are looking at the M$ DShow SDKright now, trying to find out what is necessary to resolve the existing bugs in the current filter. Of course this means that they will stop their work on the current projects. Affected are : spyder : MPV2MKV ; MPEG1/2 video to matroska robux4 : libmatroska jcsston : mpv2mkv GUI , mkvmerger GUI I hope you all understand the necessity of this step and look forward to the 1st of May, together with us. Comments are welcome ( dont forget to use the 'reply all' button ) Regards Christian http://www.matroska.org From steve.lhomme at free.fr Wed Apr 9 11:50:34 2003 From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 11:50:34 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Matroska public alpha release date : 1 st May 2003 In-Reply-To: <3E93DDF1.7000501@matroska.org> References: <3E93DDF1.7000501@matroska.org> Message-ID: <1049881834.3e93eceaa8686@imp.free.fr> * Here are the 4 major projects on which we should concentrate right now (in order of importance) : 1) DirectShow demuxer supporting playback of audio(PCM, MP3, ACM-based, AC3, Vorbis), video(YUV, VCM-based, DirectShow-based, DIVX, XviD), subtitles (simple (?), USF). 2) VirtualDubMod writing of matroska files (hopefully with all the codec mentioned above) from an AVI source or from a capture card 2) Mosu MKVTools to create matroska files from various sources and extract meta informations 3) DirectShow muxer supporting encoding of all possible DirectShow encoded streams. It should be equivalent to OggDS 4) TCMP plugin to extract meta informations to display/edit (equivalent to editing ID3 tags). * Here is the "roadmap" that we should try to achieve until the 1st of May : - 09/04 to 26/04 : implement as much as possible in all these tools. - 27/04 to 31/04 : test the tools internally and verify compatibility with the specs and all playback/reading tools. - 01/05 : make binary and source releases of these tools available to the public on many platforms. Advertise about it in popular places (Doom9, HydrogenAudio mostly). Make some basic files available with their AVI equivalent. * Here is who can do what (for all those mentioned and not mentioned please correct things) : - Me : I won't be home for 9 days so I can only work with my iBook (still have problems linking libmatroska on OSX) or my parents (slow) computer. Until that I'll update the little things remaining in the CC Tracker. When I'll be back home I'll have 7 days to work 24/24 on matroska on whatever is needed : DirectShow (on the matroska side), VDubMod, Mosu Tools, TCMP plugin. - Spyder : As mpv2mkv is hardly needed for the moment, he will start looking at how DirectShow works and try to help where he can. I think he can help on the format when I'm away. And can also have a look at Mosu tools, horpfully compiling on Windows too. - Christian : Keep a daily update on the progress on each side to "reassign" prioroties when needed. - myFUN : well I can't say really since we don't see him often. But we need the latest update of the DSF and the status on this code (what is missing and ideas on how to add what is missing). If he has the time until 01/05 to help on the DSF it will be highly appreciated. - Cyrius : VDubMod 1.5 integration of matroska. Altough I understand he may have other priorities too. To keep everybody coordinated, I highly recommend the use of CVS for all the 5 tasks mantioned above. Side Note : Blacksun could you see with Cytoplas ASAP why syncmail in the Matroska CVS doesn't send the emails (even though it says it does) ??? This is really important to avoid some errors when people update code over someone else's code. http://www.matroska.org From kimmo at poispakkoruotsi.com Wed Apr 9 14:52:46 2003 From: kimmo at poispakkoruotsi.com (Kimmo) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 15:52:46 +0300 Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Matroska public alpha release date : 1 st May 2003 References: <3E93DDF1.7000501@matroska.org> <1049881834.3e93eceaa8686@imp.free.fr> Message-ID: <014501c2feb4$e716ba70$0100a8c0@kimmo> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Lhomme" To: "Matroska General" ; "Matroska Development" Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 12:50 PM Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Matroska public alpha release date : 1 st May 2003 > * Here is the "roadmap" that we should try to achieve until the 1st of May : > > - 09/04 to 26/04 : implement as much as possible in all these tools. > > - 27/04 to 31/04 : test the tools internally and verify compatibility with the > specs and all playback/reading tools. > > - 01/05 : make binary and source releases of these tools available to the public > on many platforms. Advertise about it in popular places (Doom9, HydrogenAudio > mostly). Make some basic files available with their AVI equivalent. Should you try also advertize it in these video sites: http://www.afterdawn.com/ http://www.divx-digest.net/ http://www.matroska.org From Marlena at mail.1000ad.net Thu Apr 10 17:06:09 2003 From: Marlena at mail.1000ad.net (Marlena Deren) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 10:06:09 -0500 Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Matroska public alpha release date : 1 st May 2003 Message-ID: <200304101006.AA10813476@mail.1000ad.net> Hi, I have a question about the project, and probably I will sound as dumb as a pole because I don't comprehend any technical info it has been exchanged on this list, but I am curious exactly what Matroska is. I read the project's description and thought I had it figured out but maybe I don't...I know that this is not a compression format but a 'container' what exactly does that mean and how would you go about using it? Some old email mentioned that in the future it could be an alternative to avi or mov files. Is this for other developers or is there any way audio/video production artists could use? The reason why I am asking is because I do a lot of digital video, sound, etc. and I was wondering if I could give it a test somehow :) Pardon me if my message lacks any accurate knowledge. Marlena http://www.matroska.org From steve.lhomme at free.fr Thu Apr 10 17:14:28 2003 From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 17:14:28 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Matroska public alpha release date : 1 st May 2003 In-Reply-To: <200304101006.AA10813476@mail.1000ad.net> References: <200304101006.AA10813476@mail.1000ad.net> Message-ID: <1049987668.3e958a54db9d2@imp.free.fr> En r?ponse ? Marlena Deren : > Hi, > > I have a question about the project, and probably I will sound as dumb > as a pole because I don't comprehend any technical info it has been > exchanged on this list, but I am curious exactly what Matroska is. I > read the project's description and thought I had it figured out but > maybe I don't...I know that this is not a compression format but a > 'container' what exactly does that mean and how would you go about using > it? Some old email mentioned that in the future it could be an > alternative to avi or mov files. Is this for other developers or is > there any way audio/video production artists could use? The reason why I > am asking is because I do a lot of digital video, sound, etc. and I was > wondering if I could give it a test somehow :) Pardon me if my message > lacks any accurate knowledge. Don't worry Marlena, we are seeking for any comment on the format and less usual ones are from non-technical persons. And that's the kind of people that will choose to use matroska in the end, so this is the kind of question we'll have all the time. Well, the format in itself is mostly for developpers to use it in their tools. Being an AVI, MOV or WAV replacement means that whatever tools that use them, they could code an option to save in matroska instead, or at least read matroska content. That's for the developpers' point of view. Once developpers will integrate matroska in their tools, then you'll be able to use it in place of what you used in the past. For example AVI DV Type 1 / Type 2 will be a nightmare of the past, as long as the tools handle matroska. For the end user that choice is very unimportant. But when these people will know the key advantages of matroska, they will prefer it over a rather equivalent other format : - space efficiency - error detection - no sync problems - many streams in the same file - any kind of known codec - lifetime playback with future parsers As you can expect, most people won't care. But the ones who do will have a happier life (in the future) ;) and all their family will praised for 10 generations and they will smell rose all the time ;) http://www.matroska.org From Marlena at mail.1000ad.net Thu Apr 10 17:45:47 2003 From: Marlena at mail.1000ad.net (Marlena Deren) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 10:45:47 -0500 Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Matroska public alpha release date : 1 st May 2003 Message-ID: <200304101045.AA202440772@mail.1000ad.net> >Well, the format in itself is mostly for developpers to use it in their tools. >Being an AVI, MOV or WAV replacement means that whatever tools that use them, >they could code an option to save in matroska instead, or at least read matroska >content. That's for the developpers' point of view. >As you can expect, most people won't care. But the ones who do will have a >happier life (in the future) ;) and all their family will praised for 10 >generations and they will smell rose all the time ;) Thanks for the explanation Steve, I suppose someone like me will have to wait a bit longer to use it, but I am sure it will get there. What an elaborately ornate language at the end, you are not only a code poet but a literary aficionado :) -Marlena http://www.matroska.org From steve.lhomme at free.fr Thu Apr 10 20:08:33 2003 From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 20:08:33 +0200 Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Matroska public alpha release date : 1 st May 2003 In-Reply-To: <200304101045.AA202440772@mail.1000ad.net> References: <200304101045.AA202440772@mail.1000ad.net> Message-ID: <3E95B321.2060703@free.fr> Marlena Deren wrote: > Thanks for the explanation Steve, I suppose someone like me will have to wait a bit longer to use it, but I am sure it will get there. What an elaborately ornate language at the end, you are not only a code poet but a literary aficionado :) Sort of, yes. That's why my own project is called Mukoli (music, coding, literrature). But I don't claim any talent in these matters ;) http://www.matroska.org From marlena at 1000ad.net Thu Apr 10 21:38:33 2003 From: marlena at 1000ad.net (Marlena Deren) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 13:38:33 -0600 Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Matroska public alpha release date : 1 st May 2003 References: <200304101045.AA202440772@mail.1000ad.net> <3E95B321.2060703@free.fr> Message-ID: <000501c2ff98$c61bae90$6501a8c0@marlena> > Sort of, yes. That's why my own project is called Mukoli (music, coding, > literrature). But I don't claim any talent in these matters ;) The name sounds like a name of a Muse :) -Marlena http://www.matroska.org From chris at matroska.org Fri Apr 18 03:59:45 2003 From: chris at matroska.org (Christian HJ Wiesner) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 20:59:45 -0500 Subject: [matroska-general] Matroska DirectShow parser filter working without errors, and even with Vorbis audio Message-ID: <3E9F5C11.8020907@matroska.org> Ladies and Gentlemen, i do have the great pleasure to announce that our friends from the TCMP dev team, Toff and Blacksun, with the support from Cyrius, were finally successful in debugging the Matroska DirectShow parser filter. Its working fine now ( no stuttering/buffer underruns ) with DivX + MP3 XviD + MP3 DivX + Vorbis XviD + Vorbis All my thanks goes to you guys, where would we be without you. As a result of that we can now look forward to May 1st, the official public release date of all available tools. I'd not be surprised if the filter will make some more progress until then, like allowing to switch between different audio tracks, or offering first subtitles support. We'll see what the guys will come up with until then. I am happy and excited about this huge step forward. You guys are great !! Christian http://www.matroska.org From christophe.paris at free.fr Sat Apr 19 14:27:20 2003 From: christophe.paris at free.fr (Christophe PARIS) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 14:27:20 +0200 Subject: [matroska-general] Re: Matroska DirectShow parser filter working without errors, and even with Vorbis audio In-Reply-To: <3E9F5C11.8020907@matroska.org> References: <3E9F5C11.8020907@matroska.org> Message-ID: Hi Ladies and Gentlemen, Christian you can add AC3 and PCM16 to your list. And now the filter report duration & position to the media player also thanks to the preliminary IMediaSeeking interface support. Regards Toff Christian HJ Wiesner wrote: > > Ladies and Gentlemen, > > i do have the great pleasure to announce that our friends from the TCMP > dev team, Toff and Blacksun, with the support from Cyrius, were finally > successful in debugging the Matroska DirectShow parser filter. Its > working fine now ( no stuttering/buffer underruns ) with > > DivX + MP3 > XviD + MP3 > DivX + Vorbis > XviD + Vorbis > > All my thanks goes to you guys, where would we be without you. > > As a result of that we can now look forward to May 1st, the official > public release date of all available tools. I'd not be surprised if the > filter will make some more progress until then, like allowing to switch > between different audio tracks, or offering first subtitles support. > We'll see what the guys will come up with until then. > > I am happy and excited about this huge step forward. You guys are great !! > > Christian http://www.matroska.org From christian at matroska.org Thu Apr 24 23:47:22 2003 From: christian at matroska.org (ChristianHJW) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:47:22 +0200 Subject: [matroska-general] Re: playing XCD In-Reply-To: <20030424170604.3757622b.Dexter.Filmore@gmx.de> References: <20030424001843.14d25a71.Dexter.Filmore@gmx.de> <20030424170604.3757622b.Dexter.Filmore@gmx.de> Message-ID: <3EA85B6A.6030204@matroska.org> Dexter Filmore wrote: > On Wed, 23 Apr 2003 19:09:28 -0600 (MDT) > Mike Melanson wrote: > It's a data stream on a mode2 CD, so there's no error correction data hence > 800MB fit on a standard blank CD. The vid stream was mentioned as ogm I think. > Overall it's the dumbest thing I heard recently, Dumb ?? could you pls. be more precise why at all you think XCD is a dumb thing to do ?? BTW, its mode 2 form 2 , mode 2 alone is not sufficient as description. > http://xcd.sourceforge.net/ > http://www.doom9.org/xcd.htm Please note that XCD has a spec available since some time to protect the vital header information of OGMs to play the file in any case, stored as a form 1 track in addition to the form 2 data. The matroska team is working on a XCD implementation also, using flexible EDC and ECC ( FEC ) elements being added to the vital file headers ( file, track and blockgroup headers ) so that the 795 MB on a 80 mins mode2 form2 CD are used in a most effective and intelligent way Christian http://www.matroska.org http://www.matroska.org From steve.lhomme at free.fr Sat Apr 26 09:54:06 2003 From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 09:54:06 +0200 Subject: [matroska-general] [Fwd: [Flac-dev] Improving on Rice coding] Message-ID: <3EAA3B1E.5090808@free.fr> Do we need an audio lossless codec for CoreCodec ? :D -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [Flac-dev] Improving on Rice coding Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 00:57:58 +1000 (EST) From: Paul Harrison To: Hello, I am the author of the Bonk audio compression program... i've just been looking at your comparrison table, and i noticed bonk gets marginally better compression than Flac on some files (actually i was rather surprised to see bonk on the list at all, it's not exactly high profile :-) ). Bonk in lossless mode is a pretty naive implementation of a predictive coder, so the main difference must be in the residual coding. Bonk uses an novel encoding that can adapt to the the distribution of prediction errors, wheras Flac uses Rice coding, which assumes a two tailed exponential distribution. Given that Flac is much more advanced in other respects, i wonder if you are interested in using bonk's encoding scheme? The relevant file is utility.h in http://yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au/~pfh/bonk/bonk-0.6.tar.gz. I've put a draft description of the encoder here: http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~pfh/random/encoder.pdf regards, Paul Email: pfh at csse.monash.edu.au one ring, no rulers, thecircle.org.au ------------------------------------------------------- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf _______________________________________________ Flac-dev mailing list Flac-dev at lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flac-dev http://www.matroska.org From chris at matroska.org Sat Apr 26 23:21:35 2003 From: chris at matroska.org (Christian HJ Wiesner) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 23:21:35 +0200 Subject: [matroska-general] Alternatives to FLAC for lossless audio compression Message-ID: <3EAAF85F.4000505@matroska.org> Hi, just for your information, there is more ( and maybe even better alternatives ) than FLAC out there to make one of our dreams come true one day ( lossless audio captuing from VdubMod into matroska ). A very good comparison page seems to be here : http://web.inter.nl.net/users/hvdh/lossless/lossless.htm . I am listing a few ( not all ) of them here : 1. WAVPACK : http://www.wavpack.com/ David Bryant is the author, and i am copying Roberto Amorim on this email with the request to forward this email to David if he was maybe interested to look at matroska to have a container for storage/tagging purposes ? I hope we could have a Wavpack DirectShow plugin for TCMP one day ? Its opensource and seems to be more effective than FLAC ? 2. OptimFROG : http://ghido.shelter.ro/ Downside : not Opensource i guess, at least i couldnt find any sources on his download page, that makes it hard to integrate into VdubMod 3. LA : http://www.lossless-audio.com/ Same as 2. no source available In terms of speed ( CPU cycles ) vs. efficiency it seems that Wavpack can absolutley compete with FLAC, as you can see from the graphs in the comparison link give above. Should we change our minds and maybe prefer Wavpack for our preferred lossless audio compressor ? Especially as FLAC is a part of Xiph and has tools to mux it into Ogg container ? What you think ? Christian http://www.matroska.org From steve.lhomme at free.fr Mon Apr 28 15:29:02 2003 From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:29:02 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [matroska-general] Just a thought Message-ID: <1051536542.3ead2c9eca71f@imp.free.fr> As I'm completely sleepy this afternoon, strange things happen in my mind. I was considering (once again) the switch to Linux. But it lacks advanced hardware support (the eX part of my Audigy ? The capture of my AIW Radeon). So I was thinking of a way that could boost this support such features. My idea is that there could be a reward (probably money) for each valuable commit to an existing code. Something a bit larger than PayPal. For a user you could say : I put 5$ for this feature (Auxiliary input 2 of my soundcard). So for the same feature the amount of money could reach a good amount of money with the number of users. And it wouldn't cost a lot of money for the user. For the developper every commit would be rated by other (peer) developpers with a value (between 0 and 5). When the feature is reached, the amount of money is dispatched between the developpers with the most "points" for this feature. That could be a good way to make "business" for an open source software (ie live as a coder) and keep users happy with the features they really need. What do you think ? Could we create that on TCMP ? I see one problem/pervertion that could happen : developpers don't implement things until they think it's "economically viable". So the progress is slowed because of that. But anyway noone would bet money for such a project in the end... http://www.matroska.org