From kakaduh at gmx.de Tue May 1 11:01:52 2007 From: kakaduh at gmx.de (Hagen Wierstorf) Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 11:01:52 +0200 Subject: [Matroska-devel] Avidemux supports matroska as input now... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1178010112.3406.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> These are really great news! I have hoped for this since years ;) Thanks for the info, Hagen On Mon, 2007-04-30 at 14:07 +0200, Kurtnoise wrote: > Hi, > > Just for your information guys : matroska support is going to be > introduced in Avidemux svn branch. For whose don't know what is it, > Avidemux is a free X-plateforms video editor designed for simple > cutting, filtering and encoding tasks... > > This tool should be great for the mkv to dvd conversion imo. At least, > for A/V streams...What do you think about that ? > > ++ > Kurtnoise > > More infos : http://fixounet.free.fr/avidemux/ > News from SVN : http://www.avidemux.org/admForum/viewtopic.php?id=3155 > Some win32 builds for testing : http://www.razorbyte.com.au/avidemux/ > > _______________________________________________ > Matroska-devel mailing list > Matroska-devel at lists.matroska.org > http://lists.matroska.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/matroska-devel > Read Matroska-Devel on GMane: http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.multimedia.matroska.devel From less00 at hotmail.com Tue May 8 07:06:23 2007 From: less00 at hotmail.com (Luis Salcedo) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 00:06:23 -0500 Subject: [Matroska-devel] I cant open a matroska file Message-ID: Hey its impossible open one of your files , i have VLC and divx , but when i try to open it in VLC hace no video , the audio is perfect but i have no video , i dont know why is this happenning i hope you can help , why dont you develop all your software for mac too ?? thanks _________________________________________________________________ El mejor destino, con los mejores contenidos http://www.prodigy.msn.com From andrew.abbass at gmail.com Tue May 8 20:47:50 2007 From: andrew.abbass at gmail.com (Andrew Abbass) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 15:47:50 -0300 Subject: [Matroska-devel] Free DRM System Message-ID: Hello, I'd brought this issue up earlier, but am looking for clarification on certain issues. Is it possible to build a completely cross-platform DRM system on the matroska platform? If so, then I'm interesting in building such a system up here in Canada where it can be offered to Independent Artists free of charge while at the same time avoiding the patent royalties that would be present in the States. -Andrew Abbass From yann.renard.mailing-lists at tiscali.fr Tue May 8 22:20:35 2007 From: yann.renard.mailing-lists at tiscali.fr (Yann Renard) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 22:20:35 +0200 Subject: [Matroska-devel] Problem to read matroska subtitles with mplayer Message-ID: <4640DB93.6060005@tiscali.fr> Chears people, I have problems reading subtitles with mplayer under linux. I have a matroska file which I mux to add subtitles. Subtitles seem to be encoded as utf8 by mmg but mplayer does not display them correctly ("?", "?", and so on are displayed with a single "_" character, moreover, some nearby letters disappear). However, using the subtitle file outside of the matroska file causes subtitles to display correctly. Do anyone of you know about this ? Could it be a matroska demuxer problem on the mplayer side ? Thank you, best regards Yann Renard From kakaduh at gmx.de Tue May 8 23:20:30 2007 From: kakaduh at gmx.de (Hagen Wierstorf) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 23:20:30 +0200 Subject: [Matroska-devel] Problem to read matroska subtitles with mplayer In-Reply-To: <4640DB93.6060005@tiscali.fr> References: <4640DB93.6060005@tiscali.fr> Message-ID: <1178659230.3553.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> >From time to time I also noticed this problem. I had to changed the subtitle setting in mmg to something like ISO8859-1 and it worked correct in mplayer. mplayer has also an option -subcp (see the manpage for details), but I don't know, if it works. I hope there will be a better solution soon. Hagen On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 22:20 +0200, Yann Renard wrote: > Chears people, > > I have problems reading subtitles with mplayer under linux. I have a > matroska file which I mux to add subtitles. Subtitles seem to be encoded > as utf8 by mmg but mplayer does not display them correctly ("?", "?", > and so on are displayed with a single "_" character, moreover, some > nearby letters disappear). However, using the subtitle file outside of > the matroska file causes subtitles to display correctly. > > Do anyone of you know about this ? Could it be a matroska demuxer > problem on the mplayer side ? > > Thank you, > best regards > Yann Renard > _______________________________________________ > Matroska-devel mailing list > Matroska-devel at lists.matroska.org > http://lists.matroska.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/matroska-devel > Read Matroska-Devel on GMane: http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.multimedia.matroska.devel From andrew.abbass at gmail.com Fri May 11 18:48:17 2007 From: andrew.abbass at gmail.com (Andrew Abbass) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 13:48:17 -0300 Subject: [Matroska-devel] Free DRM Superdistribution Message-ID: Hello, I'm looking for people interested in building a Not For Profit Free DRM database that will give independent artists a cookie cutter solution for selling media over the Internet. I'd like to build it around the Matroska container system as it's the only truely cross-platform system that I've found that will allow this kind of system to exist. I need coders familiar with DRM, as well as people who're willing to help draft the digital rights (read as: constitution) aspect of the DRM system. The key ideas are ease of use, the ability to export a DRM-Free version for use on any device, and the ability for fans who've purchased media to resell their unique DRM'd copies. The closest system this resembles is the Weedshare network, which recently closed it's doors. By building this kind of system in Canada, it's possible to bypass the patent royalties and create a system where the majority of the revenue goes into the hands of the artists and the consumers, without a large percentage going to support the corporation that's maintaining the database. Thanks for your time. -Andrew Abbass www.newdor.com andrew.abbass at gmail.com From davidnduffy at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 11 22:22:22 2007 From: davidnduffy at yahoo.co.uk (David Duffy) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 20:22:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Matroska-devel] Free DRM Superdistribution Message-ID: <20070511202222.29124.qmail@web27209.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> You either need to get some response from the developers about how this impacts the format spec., i.e. being allowed to use the existing tags or add new ones, or you need to work inside of the format with your own means of determining whether or not something is encrypted. I asked about DRM a while ago and it went nowhere. The developer of mkvmerge was kind enough to at least reply and tell me he wouldn't allow user defined DRM and no decisions had been made on how the existing tags in the spec are even going to be interpreted so until the dev's are willing to discuss it it's a dead issue and the format effectively does not support it despite the presence of tags like "EncryptedBlock". I can't be bothered to push the issue but if you can get a discussion going I can help you out with your project. Good luck. ----- Original Message ---- From: Andrew Abbass To: matroska-users at lists.matroska.org; matroska-general at lists.matroska.org; matroska-devel at lists.matroska.org; matroska-cvs at lists.matroska.org Sent: Friday, 11 May, 2007 10:48:17 AM Subject: [Matroska-devel] Free DRM Superdistribution Hello, I'm looking for people interested in building a Not For Profit Free DRM database that will give independent artists a cookie cutter solution for selling media over the Internet. I'd like to build it around the Matroska container system as it's the only truely cross-platform system that I've found that will allow this kind of system to exist. I need coders familiar with DRM, as well as people who're willing to help draft the digital rights (read as: constitution) aspect of the DRM system. The key ideas are ease of use, the ability to export a DRM-Free version for use on any device, and the ability for fans who've purchased media to resell their unique DRM'd copies. The closest system this resembles is the Weedshare network, which recently closed it's doors. By building this kind of system in Canada, it's possible to bypass the patent royalties and create a system where the majority of the revenue goes into the hands of the artists and the consumers, without a large percentage going to support the corporation that's maintaining the database. Thanks for your time. -Andrew Abbass www.newdor.com andrew.abbass at gmail.com _______________________________________________ Matroska-devel mailing list Matroska-devel at lists.matroska.org http://lists.matroska.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/matroska-devel Read Matroska-Devel on GMane: http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.multimedia.matroska.devel ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it now. http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/ From davidnduffy at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 11 23:26:46 2007 From: davidnduffy at yahoo.co.uk (David Duffy) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 21:26:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Matroska-devel] Free DRM Superdistribution Message-ID: <534115.3004.qm@web27203.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Conceptually the format can support it but in reality there is no such support. You could make your own tools (or modify existing ones) to create DRM'ed content but I don't believe that any of the existing splitters/players et. al. that support Matroska playback would be able to handle the file which is what Moritz Bunkus' concern was when I asked for it. So in short, you either have to get Matroska developer buy in, or you have to write all the pieces yourself (for all desired platforms) and support them yourself. Alternatively you have to use VFW compatibility mode with your own codec that tries to figure it out from the data it is given but this is neither elegant nor codec independent and isn't what you are looking for. ----- Original Message ---- From: Andrew Abbass To: David Duffy Sent: Friday, 11 May, 2007 2:46:41 PM Subject: Re: [Matroska-devel] Free DRM Superdistribution I asked back in 2005 and was told that the format could support DRM. You can search for 'Andrew Abbass' on google and it should be the first link that pops up. I'm looking for support within the open source community to provide an alternative model for independent artists looking to publish their work online. So far, the matroska system seems to have the most potential for providing such a cross-platform solution without tying the system to a particular codec. The key idea behind this push is that the databasing company will no profit directly from the system. Instead it serves as a non-profit middleman. I hope to hear back from the developers soon. I've been contacting the EFF and a number of other agencies in the hopes that I might spark some interest. I think it's time the open source community stepped up to the plate and offered a superdistribution model that didn't serve just to benefit the private corporate model. Thanks for your offer of support. I hope to be able to provide you with more information as it becomes available. -Andrew Abbass On 5/11/07, David Duffy wrote: > You either need to get some response from the developers about how this impacts the format spec., i.e. being allowed to use the existing tags or add new ones, or you need to work inside of the format with your own means of determining whether or not something is encrypted. > > I asked about DRM a while ago and it went nowhere. > The developer of mkvmerge was kind enough to at least reply and tell me he wouldn't allow user defined DRM and no decisions had been made on how the existing tags in the spec are even going to be interpreted so until the dev's are willing to discuss it it's a dead issue and the format effectively does not support it despite the presence of tags like "EncryptedBlock". > > I can't be bothered to push the issue but if you can get a discussion going I can help you out with your project. > Good luck. > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Andrew Abbass > To: matroska-users at lists.matroska.org; matroska-general at lists.matroska.org; matroska-devel at lists.matroska.org; matroska-cvs at lists.matroska.org > Sent: Friday, 11 May, 2007 10:48:17 AM > Subject: [Matroska-devel] Free DRM Superdistribution > > Hello, > > I'm looking for people interested in building a Not For Profit Free > DRM database that will give independent artists a cookie cutter > solution for selling media over the Internet. > > I'd like to build it around the Matroska container system as it's the > only truely cross-platform system that I've found that will allow this > kind of system to exist. > > I need coders familiar with DRM, as well as people who're willing to > help draft the digital rights (read as: constitution) aspect of the > DRM system. > > The key ideas are ease of use, the ability to export a DRM-Free > version for use on any device, and the ability for fans who've > purchased media to resell their unique DRM'd copies. > > The closest system this resembles is the Weedshare network, which > recently closed it's doors. > > By building this kind of system in Canada, it's possible to bypass the > patent royalties and create a system where the majority of the revenue > goes into the hands of the artists and the consumers, without a large > percentage going to support the corporation that's maintaining the > database. > > Thanks for your time. > > -Andrew Abbass > www.newdor.com > andrew.abbass at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > Matroska-devel mailing list > Matroska-devel at lists.matroska.org > http://lists.matroska.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/matroska-devel > Read Matroska-Devel on GMane: http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.multimedia.matroska.devel > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it > now. > http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/ > ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up for your free account today http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/evt=44106/*http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/mail/winter07.html From steve.lhomme at free.fr Sat May 12 21:20:01 2007 From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 21:20:01 +0200 Subject: [Matroska-devel] Free DRM Superdistribution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46461361.6050909@free.fr> Andrew Abbass wrote: > Hello, Hi, > I'm looking for people interested in building a Not For Profit Free > DRM database that will give independent artists a cookie cutter > solution for selling media over the Internet. You want to build a database or the system that uses the files ? > I'd like to build it around the Matroska container system as it's the > only truely cross-platform system that I've found that will allow this > kind of system to exist. > > I need coders familiar with DRM, as well as people who're willing to > help draft the digital rights (read as: constitution) aspect of the > DRM system. For all discussions regarding DRM you may have a look at these threads: http://lists.matroska.org/pipermail/matroska-devel/2005-December/002803.html http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.multimedia.matroska.devel/3013 The discussion then went on in private (since nobody else seemed to care). And we got to the point where we almost have something secure and usable. I'm not sure there's a way to share my Thunderbird folder on the web, but I could zip a copy if you want. > The key ideas are ease of use, the ability to export a DRM-Free > version for use on any device, and the ability for fans who've > purchased media to resell their unique DRM'd copies. We're talking here about managed copies. Ie the ablity to transcode/transfer the content to another version/party according to the rights set in the file. This was one of the requirement of the solution we studied. > The closest system this resembles is the Weedshare network, which > recently closed it's doors. > > By building this kind of system in Canada, it's possible to bypass the > patent royalties and create a system where the majority of the revenue > goes into the hands of the artists and the consumers, without a large > percentage going to support the corporation that's maintaining the > database. Well, the more people want to help on this, the better. Although there's a lot of work to do to support this. For playback only "secure" players could achieve what you want to do, so that it's not possible to hack the player to remove the rights. And for reencoding it's the same. That means using closed source softwares. Either they need to be written from scratch or they need to be modified version of open source ones (in that case we need the right to make closes source forks). For the player CorePlayer, on which some of us are working, can be considered such a secure software and it already supports some DRM systems and it can play matroska files. So I guess it's the obvious candidate for the matroska DRMed files. For managed identical (no reencoding) copies a simple EBML/matroska tool could be written to do that. For the encoder unfortunately there's nothing of that kind available. Maybe a modified version of the LGPL FFMPEG could work, as long as it's statically linked. But it may violate the LGPL. So we need more "free" encoders to do that or write them from scratch. Steve From andrew.abbass at gmail.com Sat May 12 21:35:38 2007 From: andrew.abbass at gmail.com (Andrew Abbass) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 16:35:38 -0300 Subject: [Matroska-devel] Free DRM Superdistribution In-Reply-To: <46461361.6050909@free.fr> References: <46461361.6050909@free.fr> Message-ID: Hey, Thanks for your input. There are other aspects of the system I'd like to see intergrated. For one, the SML version of this database included the ability for fan's to resell their unique files, allowing them to take part in the revenue chain, something normally limited to physical music retailers. Once the purchase had been made, the tag information was overwritten in the file to make it unique. When that files gets to a new system, it contains the unique identifier that links to who ever purchased it last. That way if someone resells a purchased piece of media, they can eventually earn their money back so they ended up getting their music for free in the first place. I guess more than anything, if the DRM capabilities are in place, the abilities that need to be incorporated into this system need to be defined. The main push here is to create a system that doesn't take that percentage for databasing overhead. It's too much to ask. Even if it was set at pennies per transaction, that's still enough to pay for the system. (Provided it's an NFP and the excess revenue is donated to charity at the end of the year.) Oh... and if you want to send me that zip, feel free. -Andrew From frennekamp at netcologne.de Mon May 14 00:21:05 2007 From: frennekamp at netcologne.de (Frank Rennekamp) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 00:21:05 +0200 Subject: [Matroska-devel] Video/Audio out of sync at evofiles... Message-ID: <000e01c795ac$ffbe3ec0$04000100@wohnzimmer> ...with ffdshow. Please have a look into this: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1002615#post1002615 Original problem: "When I build a graph with Haali-splitter, VC-1 codec from Microsoft, I have a fine playback at 24 fps (HD-DVD-rip from my own Discs onto my media, server, playing *.evo). When I integrate ffdshow into the chain, re-clock reports not only 30fps, but audio and video are heavily out of sync. It does not matter if I use ffdshow as raw-postprocessor or if I use ffdshow as VC-1-decoder as well. As soon as ffdshow is in the video-chain, video and audio is out of sync (beta2 release). " Answer I got today from one of the ffdshow-developers: "ffdshow video decoder receives timestamps saying 30fps(33ms) from VIDEOINFOHEADER2 and IMediaSample::GetTime. This is not likely ffdshow's bug. Please report this issue to Haali. I don't know what trick Microsoft's codec use though." Heeeeeeelp !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Best Regards Frank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve.lhomme at free.fr Mon May 14 22:18:21 2007 From: steve.lhomme at free.fr (Steve Lhomme) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 22:18:21 +0200 Subject: [Matroska-devel] Free DRM Superdistribution In-Reply-To: References: <46461361.6050909@free.fr> Message-ID: <4648C40D.1040504@free.fr> Andrew Abbass wrote: > Hey, > > Thanks for your input. > > There are other aspects of the system I'd like to see intergrated. > > For one, the SML version of this database included the ability for > fan's to resell their unique files, allowing them to take part in the > revenue chain, something normally limited to physical music retailers. > > Once the purchase had been made, the tag information was overwritten > in the file to make it unique. When that files gets to a new system, > it contains the unique identifier that links to who ever purchased it > last. > > That way if someone resells a purchased piece of media, they can > eventually earn their money back so they ended up getting their music > for free in the first place. > > I guess more than anything, if the DRM capabilities are in place, the > abilities that need to be incorporated into this system need to be > defined. > > The main push here is to create a system that doesn't take that > percentage for databasing overhead. It's too much to ask. Even if it > was set at pennies per transaction, that's still enough to pay for the > system. (Provided it's an NFP and the excess revenue is donated to > charity at the end of the year.) All that is covered by what we have stated so far in the discussions I will send you. The matroska part is to tell that the content is encrypted and carry a description of the rights you need to use that content. So all you're saying above is manager by the rights given to the user. On which we (matroska people) have very little say. The rights system that we thought about is ODRL. Steve From rrluke at tampabay.rr.com Tue May 15 20:50:47 2007 From: rrluke at tampabay.rr.com (Luke Stepniowski) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 14:50:47 -0400 Subject: [Matroska-devel] haali media splitter issues with 1080i Transport Message-ID: <464A0107.7020704@tampabay.rr.com> I'm using the Haali Media Splitter for playback of ATSC MPEG2 HD Transports streams captured from a HDHomerun device. I'm experiencing an unusual playback issue when using the Haali source splitter in my DirectShow filters. The splitter is introducing what appears to look like macro blocking when playing back 1080i content and possibly with 720p but I can't confirm 100% at this point. Upon further investigation it is clear the error isn't source macroblocking. In the most drastic instances of the error when an object is shown in the video and moves location the initial location of the object still appears garbled while the rest of the video is playing back smooth and clear. I can replication the issue only when using Haali as the source splitter and no other combination of filters after the Haali splitter resolves the issue. The errors alway appear at the same point in the video time line when seeking back to the bad spot. I can replicate the issue all three of my 3 machines. I've verified with no doubt that if I use another source filter the playback is 100% error free. 15 second clip showing the issue to test against: http://www.majjix.com/tmp/sample051507.ts (when the horse kicks the tricycle) Here is an example of directshow filter (I've tried many combination and it's no doubt isolated to Haali Splitter): Haali Media Splitter -> NVidia Video Decoder / AC3Filter -> VM9 (issue) File Source -> NVidiaTS Source -> NVidia Video Decoder / AC3Filter -> VM9 (no issue) -luke From rrluke at tampabay.rr.com Wed May 16 03:47:15 2007 From: rrluke at tampabay.rr.com (Luke Stepniowski) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 21:47:15 -0400 Subject: [Matroska-devel] haali media splitter issues with 1080i Transport In-Reply-To: <464A0107.7020704@tampabay.rr.com> References: <464A0107.7020704@tampabay.rr.com> Message-ID: <464A62A3.5030004@tampabay.rr.com> I've since install the the latest version of Haali (1.7.152.18) which resolved the issue described below (1.7.121.0) but the latest version again introduced a serious audio sync issue which I experienced in older versions of the Haali splitter. I'm back to using 1.7.152.18 since Haali is the only spliter and source filter with accurate timelines when using comskip data. I'm open to any suggestions. Luke Stepniowski wrote: > I'm using the Haali Media Splitter for playback of ATSC MPEG2 HD > Transports streams captured from a HDHomerun device. I'm experiencing > an unusual playback issue when using the Haali source splitter in my > DirectShow filters. The splitter is introducing what appears to look > like macro blocking when playing back 1080i content and possibly with > 720p but I can't confirm 100% at this point. Upon further > investigation it is clear the error isn't source macroblocking. In the > most drastic instances of the error when an object is shown in the > video and moves location the initial location of the object still > appears garbled while the rest of the video is playing back smooth and > clear. I can replication the issue only when using Haali as the source > splitter and no other combination of filters after the Haali splitter > resolves the issue. The errors alway appear at the same point in the > video time line when seeking back to the bad spot. I can replicate the > issue all three of my 3 machines. I've verified with no doubt that if > I use another source filter the playback is 100% error free. > > 15 second clip showing the issue to test against: > http://www.majjix.com/tmp/sample051507.ts (when the horse kicks the > tricycle) > > Here is an example of directshow filter (I've tried many combination > and it's no doubt isolated to Haali Splitter): > Haali Media Splitter -> NVidia Video Decoder / AC3Filter -> VM9 (issue) > File Source -> NVidiaTS Source -> NVidia Video Decoder / AC3Filter -> > VM9 (no issue) > > -luke > _______________________________________________ > Matroska-devel mailing list > Matroska-devel at lists.matroska.org > http://lists.matroska.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/matroska-devel > Read Matroska-Devel on GMane: > http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.multimedia.matroska.devel From kurtnoise at free.fr Wed May 16 18:22:25 2007 From: kurtnoise at free.fr (Kurtnoise) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 18:22:25 +0200 Subject: [Matroska-devel] Matroska support in Handbrake... Message-ID: After Avidemux, Matroska support in HandBrake is on the way...:) Great news, isn't it ? Don't tried it yet though personally. For a reminder : HandBrake is an open-source, GPL-licensed, multiplatform, multithreaded DVD to MPEG-4 converter, available for MacOS X, Linux and Windows. More infos about matroska support : http://handbrake.m0k.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1664 And about new mkv stuff. We can also add this project : http://sourceforge.net/projects/kfile-matroska/ but nothing is available as you can see... ++ Kurtnoise From masahase at gmail.com Sat May 26 16:37:27 2007 From: masahase at gmail.com (MASA.H) Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 14:37:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Matroska-devel] Haali's Video Renderer doesn't support IQualityControl? Message-ID: Hello developer or user, I've noticed that followings. With Haali's Video Renderer, ffdshow doesn't drop frames even if delay become larger than limit. With other renderer, ffdshow drops frames before delay become as large as limit. And, even if Haali's show very big Jitter, ffdshow showed delay is nothing. So, ffdshow couldn't realize there's large delay. I think these were made by one thing. It is that the renderer doesn't support or use IQualityControl well. Is it true? From mike at haali.net Tue May 29 01:27:47 2007 From: mike at haali.net (=?UTF-8?B?0JzQuNGF0LDQuNC7INCc0LDRhtC90LXQsg==?=) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 03:27:47 +0400 Subject: [Matroska-devel] Haali's Video Renderer doesn't support IQualityControl? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <465B6573.2060507@haali.net> MASA.H wrote: > I've noticed that followings. > With Haali's Video Renderer, ffdshow doesn't drop frames even if delay become > larger than limit. With other renderer, ffdshow drops frames before delay become > as large as limit. > And, even if Haali's show very big Jitter, ffdshow showed delay is nothing. So, > ffdshow couldn't realize there's large delay. > > I think these were made by one thing. It is that the renderer doesn't support or > use IQualityControl well. Is it true? > Yes, this is by design. Please use one the Microsoft's stock renderers if you need that kind of functionality. From mike.chen82 at googlemail.com Wed May 30 13:51:25 2007 From: mike.chen82 at googlemail.com (Mike Chen) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 03:51:25 -0800 Subject: [Matroska-devel] VC-1 codec support in matroska - take two Message-ID: <9c49ba030705300451l3e0327c7y8892005c4b0d64a@mail.gmail.com> Hello. I would like to discuss (again!) support for next-gen HD video and audio formats (namely VC1 for start) in matroska. A month ago I sent a message asking if the support is planned and what is the way to do it. We discussed much of it off the DL with Michael (??????), since he already implemented it in Haali splitter. However, from my point of view his implementation (as of today) will bring more trouble to everyone in a long run, so that's the reason I would like to discuss it here. There are actually three things to discuss: Codec spec in general, reason for adding VC1, and VC1 format itself. Codec spec. As of today, there are two code standards (at least for mpeg-like codecs) in matroska. One published at matroska spec page and at http://haali.cs.msu.ru/mkv/codecs.pdf (and this standard frankly has nothing to do with a real life), and a de-facto standard implemented by all major readers (which of course is different from a published one). By major readers I mean VLC, ffmpeg and haali. For example, MPEG2 description reads "the stream itself does not contain any sequence/gop headers anymore". Had it been implemented that way, it would be pretty inconvenient to write a splitter for mpeg - one had to decode I frames and apply sequence header from CodecPrivate (or add sequence header to each frame) in a splitter. However de-facto standard just requires mpeg stream unchanged, split at frame boundaries (sequence and gop header merged with the next frame). This makes writing a splitter a very easy job - just pass frames among with PTS down the chain, and decoder will understand it. VLC and ffmeg splitters work exactly like that. In fact nor VLC nor mplayer not even haali would play an MPEG stream formatted by "official specification". Funny enough it looks like muxer in mkvtools did produce stripped stream some time ago, but later the code that adds sequence header to EVERY frame was added. This produces non-conformant mpeg stream (sequence headers should not be present within GOP boundaries), but all decoders seem to ignore additional sequence headers. The reason I wrote about this is that sometimes this spec is used as an example. In his current implementation of VC1 codec Michael requires sequence headers (and even startcodes!!!) to be stripped from a stream and cites MPEG documentation as an example, claiming that is how MPEG is implemented. That complicates discussion. So, here is my question - how one adds changes to matroska spec? Is there any voting/discussion/etc, or is it just kind of anarchy? I would very much like official spec to be in sync with a de-facto standard (which is much more simpler and elegant then current "official" one). Reasons to add VC1 codec. VC1 has three profiles - simple, main and advanced. Simple and main can be (and are as of today) supported via fourcc encapsulation, so there are no special changes required. Thanks to Michael who pointed this out. Advanced profile requires adding a codec, since it has B frames (and even field-based stream, when one can have a B-field followed by P-field !!!)and as Steve mentioned it usually comes from mpeg PS/TS streams. VC1 is a very much like x264 and mpeg, so supporting it and adding a codec seems natural. Changes in decoders should be minimal. Proposed format for VC1. In my first email I proposed basically to keep ES stream unchanged, split at frame boundaries and PTS-timestamped. This is how all mpeg-like streams are encoded today, making a matroska essentially an ES-container. With this format changes to decoders are minimal (ffmpeg would require one line change and VLC - 3 lines :) ). The very first VC1 codec was of course from MS. It required the following codec private area - one byte len, followed by sequence header, followed by entrypoint header, all with startcodes. Both headers are required for decoding but first byte seems unnecessary, but that was original MS format. Later ffmeg adopted this format in its decoder module. That's what I was proposing to keep in codec private. This way no additional changes are required and in fact after doing this 4-line source code change both VLC and mplayer played VC1 streams flawlessly (VLC played with both ffmpeg and DMO). Michael, however does not agree with this proposal, and actually implemented VC1 in haali differently, using his ability to change it as he sees fit. He proposed to strip startcodes from each frame (!!!) , strip all headers and put sequence/entrypoint without startcodes into CodecPrivate. There are two problems with this design, in my opinion. Firstly, it creates an unneeded complexity - now the decoder should reconstruct the stream by adding startcodes and headers, decoder should also keep track on which kind of frame it is processing to apply required header. Also CodecPrivate area cannot be passed directly to codec by decoder in this design. All of this will probably make VC1 the ugliest implemented codec in matroska. Second, all these optimizations will achieve nothing. There is not much value in saving 5 bytes per 15 frames with a 15mbit bitstream. As for stripping startcodes, this may be achieved even today just by using header compression, without any need to write additional code. So here is my question - is there any formal way to add a codec spec to matroska? Or should we keep everything as is - try to implement codecs without any discussion differently in different software and then create a format mess/war in Matroska? The reason I'm writing all this is not because I have to fulfill my own ego but because I want to make matroska more mature and ready for HD video. Our company believes in Matroska and in fact our product will promote it very highly. Our muxer is superior to any other I personally know of, and we are going to release muxer core under LGPL. So is there finally any way to contribute important stuff without hearing "I already did it my way, go away"? Approach like this won't help matroska to become a mature format I fear. I honestly believe that we can avoid situation when proprietary patented formats are designed cleanly and reasonably, and open-source ones are a mess. I finished. Yours, Mike.